Janet DesGeorges...: Hello, everyone. Welcome to At the Table with Hands & Voices. I'm your host Janet DesGeorges and welcome to this episode entitled Professionals as Unbiased Supporters with our special guest Dr. Lilach Saperstein. This podcast series is brought to you Hands & [00:00:30] Voices where we envision a world where children who are deaf and hard and hearing have every opportunity to thrive and achieve to their full potential, celebrating all families and their diverse cultures, ensuring equity and inclusion for all. So excited to introduce today's guest, but first this podcast is sponsored today by the Hands & Voices Virtual Waiting Room. This site was created for families with [00:01:00] children who have been referred to our are in the care of an audiologist and who are receiving services, virtually, or in person. The goal is to replicate some of the experiences and benefits of an actual in-person waiting room. Parents will find a guidebook for audiology, questions to ask an audiologist, connections to family-to-family support, even a care station and more. Please check this out at www.handsandvoices. [00:01:30] org
And now, today's guest is on a mission to help parents connect with and advocate for their children. Dr. Lilach Saperstein is an educational audiologist and parent coach. From her speaking engagements to her clinical work, she has impacted thousands of people with information and support in their time of need. Her specialty is helping parents think outside their current state about potential resources and support they can access [00:02:00] so they feel more confident about reaching their goals and intentions. Today, I'm excited to introduce to you the host of the All About Audiology podcast, just celebrating her 50,000th download, Dr. Lilach Saperstein. Welcome, Lilach. Thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein...: Thank you for having me. I'm so honored.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah, that is so impressive. 50,000 downloads. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Yeah. I love [00:02:30] podcasting. I'm so excited about your new endeavor here and I think podcasting has such a way to reach people in their ears while their doing other things, but it's also quite intimate. You get a long-form conversation, so I'm a big fan of the medium.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah, absolutely. And I have to tell you, when we here at Hands & Voices decided to do a podcast series and we were thinking about different topics and people to interview, I just kept thinking, "I'm going to ask people that I'm really interested in [00:03:00] that have impressed me in terms of what their doing in their lives or careers." And as I've gotten to know you, you are just an outside the box audiologist. I've loved getting to know you and I'm really just so honored that you could be here with us today. And I'm interested in how you became an audiologist. Tell us a little bit about that story.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Okay. So audiology, for me, came [00:03:30] kind of as a surprise. While I was already in my second year of college I thought I was going to be a teacher, then maybe a scientist, maybe a doctor, I was doing that, trying all the different things, and I really loved linguistics and I was taking all these phonetics classes and all of a sudden I realize, "Hey, wait a minute, there's this field that integrates all these different interests that's kind of paramedical, but it's also a lot about [00:04:00] language and language development."
And then, someone just told me, "How about audiology?" They kind of brought it into my attention. It wasn't really a career that I knew about or had any connection to aside from my grandparents had hearing aids, that kind of thing. But then, they more I started learning about it, it hit so many different elements of what I wanted to do. Mostly, it was the counseling piece, because at first maybe I was going to be a therapist, maybe I was going to be working with families. For sure, it had to be with people [00:04:30] and it had to be science-y, so it kind of just came out of trying to fit all my various interests into one thing and audiology had all those things. So I was excited about that.
Janet DesGeorges...: You strike me as a person that wants and likes to be around people. I think people like to be around you, too.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Yes.
Janet DesGeorges...: Did you have any life experiences with deaf and hard of hearing people growing up or anything like that?
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Again, my grandfather had [00:05:00] hearing loss that was pretty significant in the way that he was very isolated and my grandmother always interpreted for him, she would repeat what everyone else said, because he knew her voice and her accent, so I kind of had that experience. And I did have one friend with a cochlear implant growing up, so I was aware of its existence, but it wasn't the driving force there. More I was coming at it from the education piece [00:05:30] and seeing how kids would be able to access communication and education when they had these various, quote unquote, barriers and that was the piece that as interesting for me.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. Oh, that's very cool. Tell us a little bit about your work today, what you're doing and just the different areas that you're exploring in this area of audiology.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Sure. Okay, so after doing a bit of clinical work, at a school [00:06:00] for the deaf and then afterwards as a cochlear implant audiologist, I kind of got the hospital side, the school side. I saw something that I felt was a big gap and that was the parents, because we were focusing so much on testing, programming, taking care of all the devices, and making sure the batteries were good and the tubes and all the technical little things, and focusing a lot on the child and their devices and the parents, many times, I felt that they were [00:06:30] kind of dazed. That is the state that I would most meet parents in, just not really quite sure what's right, what's going on, what's the next step, and the more I noticed that, I wanted to address their concerns and their questions and then I would see many of them didn't even know what their questions were or what concerns they should have. Even they were dazed about being dazed.
And that's where my work really started with focusing [00:07:00] on parents. So it started with the podcast and then just doing a lot of interviews and trying to reach parents and say, "Okay, here's what you should be asking. Here's a lot of the resources that you mentioned, right?" Like what does this all mean? How do we understand these words? And then, as we got deeper and deeper into my work, it was how to parents except, understand, grieve, advocate, go through all these different stages so that there is a focus on the parents journey and that's what I do now. [00:07:30] I have a support group and various retreats that are fully focusing on the parent's experience.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. I can really resonate with you on that sort of dazed experience and it's interesting because I think, especially in the beginning, we as families who are going through this journey and are encountering different professionals in our life, I think, for me anyway, the early intervention provider was sort of my relational anchor, because I was seeing her every week. She was in our home, sort [00:08:00] of living out our life with us, but the encounter with an audiologist is different, it's not as often, it's in a clinic-based setting, which I think sort of clenches you up anyway.
I think there's often the dynamic of sort of the physician-patient sort of construct in your head, if you're wearing a white coat, you're sitting quietly, taking the information. So I really appreciate the fact that you are sort of dismantling those [00:08:30] conditions within the context of that setting, because I think it can be a challenge for audiologists, especially when they have a short period of time and they do have to do particular testing. This concept of just opening up the door, to understand that even those things, that appointment really is for the family and I think you've just dug into the essential element of that relational trust building, [00:09:00] so that families can let go and be able to really share what's going on.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: And the idea that the relationship between the parent and the audiologist is a priority at all. In the studies of becoming an audiologist, there is definitely some aspect of let's talk about counseling, how to explain things, a lot of informational counseling, what does this mean, and what should you do and how to charge things. [00:09:30] It literally comes back all the time to the devices, like teaching you how to use a device, and that takes up so much time and it's very important, of course. But the question is why? In service of what? Why are we doing all this? And sometimes, that piece of the conversation is almost like, "Well, it's obvious because we're trying to help them here," but in service of why? Why do we want them to have access to sounds? And is that the only goal we have [00:10:00] for this child and for their progress? If we want to jump into bias-
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah, let's.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: ... I think that even there, right there, is a question of we're doing all these things for devices so they can hear, so they can access sound, so they can, so they can on so many layers. Well, what about for them to feel included, for them to have... for children to have an easy, accessible independent of technology way of communicating with family. [00:10:30] Do we bring up sign language, do we bring up gestures, do we think about the way they'll make friends. And those are the real goals that my parents have, will my child be bullied, will my child have a job when they grow up, have beautiful, fulfilling relationships? And here's and audiologist who's like, "These are the buttons, these are the programs, this is how you charge it," and sometimes those two conversations are... they're not talking to each other. One person's in a very different place.
Janet DesGeorges...: [00:11:00] Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, let's dive in a little bit to bias, because it's really interesting to me, because I think here at Hands & Voices, we've been training forever... our priority is around family-to-family support in that construct, and so we, from the very beginning, even within our mission statement, we provide support to families without a bias around modality or communication. I mean, we've taken hits [00:11:30] for that from the day we were born, that people would say, "You can't be unbiased." So we kept digging deeper and we created, literally, the definition out of dictionary which, you now the definition of bias is to cause to swerve from a course, to influence, usually unfairly, or inspire with prejudice. That idea of [inaudible 00:11:55] and in our world, the belief that there's one right way for all deaf and hard of hearing [00:12:00] kids. So that's held the test of time and it's always a work in progress, but in our context it's how we share our journey with our kids with other families, so that we don't coerce or intend to influence another family's journey.
So with audiology, it's really interesting, because you're literal career is to bring audition to the lives of children, and [00:12:30] so I've been a part of conversations where people say, "Well, such and such professionals can't be unbiased," whether it's an ASL instructor or an audiologist. And when I meet people like you, I understand that that just isn't true, that anyone, and particularly professionals, can hone their skills that they don't have to deny the support that they're offering to families, but this dynamic, and I [00:13:00] think it goes back to what you were talking about, sort of that relationship building with families. So just talk a little bit more, for you, about how you personally have achieved this concept of the family journey and their decisions and choices versus your role as an audiologist.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Yeah. I think you brought up a really important point about what is the role of said professional? And then, what does that [00:13:30] personal connection, the person you actually meet, what do they do? So when you say audiologist, you're talking about 70,000 people, but what about your audiologist that is named Sarah. Those are two very different things, and that's the same exact concept. When we say deaf and hard of hearing kids, we're talking about a huge umbrella, a big bucket of children with all different etiologies and case history and factors [00:14:00] and resources, and, and, and, all the different factors. But are we talking about your child, like Jessica, let's talk about her. So it goes on both sides, on the professional side and on each individual child.
So I would start at the very beginning. The very beginning is that many people receive a hearing loss diagnosis, which even those words, hearing loss, there's something wrong, diagnoses, is a medical thing, and so [00:14:30] even those words carry meaning towards one direction, which is there's a problem that needs to be fixed and they're hearing that, most commonly, from an audiologist or an EMT and those are people with status, those are people with lots of letters and degrees after their name and the messaging behind that is, there's a problem, here's how to, quote unquote, fix it and here's what we need to do immediately, with [00:15:00] urgency and that's one prevailing, what's the word? Prevailing narrative that most parents are getting and are they getting any additional perspectives, narratives, around having a deaf or hard of hearing child, likely not. Unless they come online, unless they have personal relationship, unless they come to Hands & Voices and meet other people and see that there's a difference.
But the default of how they would discover this, identify their deaf [00:15:30] or hard of hearing child, is from a medical model that is looking at it in that way. And then, as you move forward, you're going to have those same professionals also intervening or telling you that intervention is necessary, urgently, medically, and they're giving you educational... I'm sorry, there's a little bit of thunder and lightning-
Janet DesGeorges...: Oh gosh.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: ... and I'm anxious about the internet. So I'm [00:16:00] trying to focus and it's distracting me. Yeah, there's a big thunder and lightning storm.
Janet DesGeorges...: Wow. [crosstalk 00:16:10] Okay, if it becomes dangerous, yeah, let's not put your life at risk above the podcast. But you're doing really good, so keep going.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: No, I'm just explaining sometimes I'm losing my focus here. Okay. So if they're presenting it as an issue and their also making, they including myself, right? As a professional, we're making also [00:16:30] educational recommendations of what kind of school or audiologists who tell you, "Don't learn sign," or "Yes, learn sign," which are not necessarily fully within our scope and that's a real controversial thing to say as an audiologist, right? And the parent, this is the professional, why should I even know that there's outside perspectives, narratives, options in this world, if not for relationship, community, Instagram hashtags.
Janet DesGeorges...: [00:17:00] Right.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: TikTok or podcasts that you might come across that you might learn about.
Janet DesGeorges...: Right. It's so interesting, because I used the word medical model the other day in a conversation with different individuals and someone said, "Hey, do you mind if I ask you a question, because it feels like when you or other people use the term medical model it has a really negative connotation." Because I was talking about the context of the medical aspect of the journey [00:17:30] of raising a child who's deaf or hard of hearing and what you just described, sort of the more holistic nature of this experience, and I thought that was a really good challenging question, because I said, "No, I'm not trying to use it in a negative way, I think families appreciate and utilize and need the support services of professionals with letters [00:18:00] after their names. I mean, we do rely and depend on that.
So I think we've sometimes set up the construct in our world of the either/or, that you either are having the holistic deaf experience or the medical model, cure it. And I think, in today's age, families more and more are living out their life experience with both of those things in the balance. And when you encounter a medical professional who also holds those things to be true, it's like a dream [00:18:30] come true for families, where you're moving between your worlds and you don't have to defend your position depending on who you're sitting across from, whether it's an audiologist or a deaf individual who does not see this life experience in any sort of deficit base or in need of being fixing. And for us, as families, my gosh, just trying to get a handle on all this, especially in the beginning, is so complicated.
I mean, I just remember people telling me, "If you ever [00:19:00] sign to your daughter, she'll never learn to talk," or "If you don't teach your child to listen and speak she'll never make it in the world," and it is a hard road to process. And when you get professionals in your life who are there to support you and not a philosophy or a methodology, it just changes your world. So this is kind of why I wanted to just explore this more with you and particularly in audiology. [00:19:30] Do you feel like, in today's profession, with the colleagues that you encounter in conferences you go to or conversations that you're having on podcasts or wherever, do you feel like there's a trending towards that, more of an understanding of that? Or do you still feel like we're stuck a little bit in the, quote, medical model?
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: I think things have changed and are continuing to change. My favorite people to talk to online are students [00:20:00] and I hear a lot that they are finding the podcasts, because millennials, Gen Z, we're online, there's way more connection, even during your studies, that not all your information is coming from textbooks and lectures, so you already, as you start into the field are being exposed to other people and other perspectives, so that part of it I'm very a big fan of that. We're already communicating [00:20:30] and also not only within the profession but outside with other professionals OTs and PTs and speech therapists. And I think that, already, the tide is changing, for sure.
And I also think that what is changing is that the technology has improved so much that it's less binary. The decision, also, is less binary. I'm trying to think how to formulate [00:21:00] this idea. You talked about how the medical model might be looked at as a negative thing and I think that there... my husband is a family doctor, let's start there. So him and I kind of went through our training together, residencies, and we have this conversation all the time. Now, family medicine, as a metaphor, is someone who knows you, who you see every so often throughout the year, who also [00:21:30] might know your family history, because they literally know your family. He treats the grandma, knows the aunt, so he has a real picture of what's going on in your family, and he's always checking your labs and keeping on top of things. And then, when there's an issue, okay let me tell you which specialist to go. Then you go to the specialist and the specialist is more direct, trying to get to an issue.
So I think that there's some kind of metaphor there about how there needs to be some [00:22:00] family doctor, family physician, that is family audiologist, that kind of gets more about your entire context and who you are. And then, when you need a cochlear implant mapping, yes, please go to someone who's really good at cochlear implant mapping and does that very well. And then, that also frees up the cochlear implant audiologist from having to spend time that they don't have talking to you about how are they doing in school and what else is going on, because [00:22:30] that's not a good use of their expertise. They should be really specialized and that you should, as a parent, feel that there are other options, that you can join an online support group or a Hands & Voices meeting and parent, peer support for that, not from your audiologist. So many giving space that audiologists don't have to contain all elements of this journey for you I think is where that goes.
Janet DesGeorges...: Absolutely. Yeah. I think [00:23:00] that's a really good point and I think that leads to thinking about where families get support from a lot of different areas and we're huge advocates of family-to-family support and it's interesting because sometimes early intervention providers or other specialist will say, when we describe what we do in family-to-family support they say, "Well, we do that. We provide emotional support. We provide information and resources." And yeah, we're not trying to supplant what you do, [00:23:30] it just comes from a different lens.
And so, I think the beauty of what we all do together, which is... from my point of view, as a family-to-family support provider, I would never come in and try to dismantle what a family was told by an audiologist or a medical professional, especially when we are all, whether it's professionals, deaf and hard of hearing adults, even within our communities, [00:24:00] other professions, that if we're all focused on the needs of the child, which is why I love our motto at Hands & Voices, what works for your child is what makes the choice right, it does create a seamless system and we talk about that all the time, so yeah. Sometimes I think people have a little difficulty understanding the concept of, "Well, I'm not biased." Do you have any examples of what that looks or feels like in [00:24:30] encounters that you've either heard from families, because I got a lot [crosstalk 00:24:34]
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Yes. I have to tell you about this. You told me this was the topic and the first thing that I thought of was jury duty. About 10 years ago, I was called to jury duty and I went through like two rounds and I was up there the third time of almost being picked for this jury and the question they asked me there was, "Do you believe that you could be unbiased?" It was a case also that was pertaining to police [00:25:00] and there were various things that they wanted to know like, "Does anyone have a police officer relative?," and this and that. So they asked me, "Do you think you could be unbiased in this case and I said, I remember this, feeling real proud of myself, I said, "There is no such thing. We all come with our experiences, we all come with what we know and our family history and our cultural histories, where we live. And, of course, every single person has had both interactions that are both positive and neutral [00:25:30] and negative with all different types of people. That question is a real moot point for anyone on this jury." That was me being all philosophical and they let me go. I think it worked.
But it actually is a huge part of my core belief is that each person does come from a whole lineage, like even before your life, right? What stories your family carries [00:26:00] intergenerational values, and by the time you come to our life and your issues and especially your child, there is a lot there that's very important. So what's the context around ableism or stigma in general. There are some communities where if a child has any disability or anything that is not like the others, they want to hide that, [00:26:30] they want to keep it hush. They don't want other people, so they're very wary of getting support and reaching out, because then this is a shameful thing. And other communities, where the second there is something going on, they post about it, they share about it, they're reaching out to everyone and they're much more open to receiving that. And that is way before we're even talking about different hard of hearing kids. That's a much base level thing.
And then, also, the idea that [00:27:00] we hear people say things like how will this affect their future. For some families, the future success of a child is everything from before they're born. Like this child will be X, Y, Z, if that means the same as us religiously or they'll be a doctor or a lawyer. That kind of pressure-
Janet DesGeorges...: Or love music or be a good athlete. Yeah.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Exactly, exactly. I don't even think about that one, because who does sports in my family, no one even knows sports. [00:27:30] But there are families that if you don't do sports, you haven't done a thing in your life, that's the whole thing. So now, if you're going to have a device that makes it dangerous for them to do contact sports, that's a big deal. And I don't know that I would've ever thought of that, until I met a family that that was their concern with their infant, that they won't be able to play football. It never occurred to me. So I think people come in with a lot of biases, in general, as people, because we are, and that's not a bad thing. [00:28:00] That's the beauty of life and diversity. But the main thing I think I hear is that people are afraid that their child will be treated as less than and one of the biggest mindset shifts that happens is that that starts with you. You need to start as the parent saying, "Do I see this child and will I treat them as less than, less capable, [00:28:30] give them less access to other things, because they can't hear so why should I sing?," that kind of perspective. And that's like, "You picked that up somewhere and we need to take a look and explore those feelings and not judge you about them, because why should you know any different?" But that's a place to start.
Janet DesGeorges...: This is really good, because I was really interested today to explore the bias of audiologists and I think you brought up a really good point about sort of also what families [00:29:00] bring in terms of bias, not necessarily in terms of methodological area. But I want to go back to your jury story for a second, because I cannot tell you how many research articles people have sent me hear at Hands & Voices to say, "You cannot be unbiased," and especially in this day and age of looking at implicit bias, antiracism versus racism, it's a huge topic [00:29:30] in today's world. And so, for us to stand on a hill and say, "We provide unbiased support," or "Support without bias," or people have given us all kinds of other words to use, because it really is a trigger for people to say, "There is no way to be unbiased."
So, again, I will go back to our definition, which is this intent to coerce and why that resonates with us in the journey is that there have been many... most [00:30:00] families and particularly I was going to say in the past, but I keep hearing stories in today's world of families of people who are dedicated with their intent to coerce for us to make certain decisions as the right decision about whether our children should be listening and spoken language or American Sign Language or whatever language you are in the world or bilingual [00:30:30] or signing with written English or both, total communication, the intent to coerce is out there every day, and so we don't back down from the concept that we look at, which is families go through a particular process when they get good information resources and support to make the decision that are right for their children. And it's not a one time thing, it's not like you decide [00:31:00] and then you're stuck in stone. You, of course, are then responding to your child as they grow and learn.
And so, there's this beautiful freedom when you're not stuck on a modality that you're able to respond to the particular needs of your child. So that's always where I'll always kind of defend, but I think it's really important to talk about the truth is that we do all have biases. So some of the ways that we here have worked through the idea [00:31:30] of how do you learn and grow in that, which is really simple strategies when you're across from a family and some of the things you've already talked about in terms of relationship and listening and what the point of the encounter is. That clinical encounter isn't actually for you to perform the tests, although we do need the tests, but it's what is the family needing. And I loved somebody who said, [00:32:00] even thinking about rather than asking a family at the end of a visit, "Do you have any questions?," to ask them in the beginning, what do you hope to get out of today's session? And even if it is the parent like, "Well, I thought I was here for the test," but at least that gets the conversation going.
So yeah, that's really good. And then, I really liked what you said about I think audiologists [00:32:30] who are really committed to meeting the needs of families to help families process through their own biases or whatever you call them, that's really a good line of thought. I like that.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Yeah, I recently learn this... I can't back this up, but I heard about it, this idea that children who go to counseling, who get therapy for whatever issues they're facing, their [00:33:00] results are kind of a toss-up of how much that counseling will help. But if their parents go to counseling, that seems to have many good outcomes on the child, whatever issue they had. I recently heard that, I wish I had the actual source. But that really fits into a huge part of, A, my personal experience, but that's besides the point. And B, my professional outlook, which is that children [00:33:30] swim in the environment that they are in and who their primary caregivers are affects pretty much all of it. We talk a lot about what happens at school and what happens with friends, but all the majority of the hours and interactions are happening with primary caregivers at home and with siblings. So if there's a place to tackle the thing that's going to make the biggest impact, that's where it its, not just from a language-rich [00:34:00] perspective, but also from a much bigger, broader what kind of situation are people in.
And that brings us into all these huge topics, which you touched on as well, which is the systemic things like does a person have stable housing, do they have stable food, access to nutrition and base level... sorry, it actually hurts my heart sometimes. When I [00:34:30] was working with families, I could see that there were much bigger issues than were their devices on all waking hours. And it's like, what are you even talking about? We're drowning in so many other areas and what you're talking about is very low on our list of available resources, emotionally, mentally, physically. I mean, financially, et cetera.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah, and we're not asking the [00:35:00] audiologist to fix all those things in a 30 minute encounter, but when an audiologist who asks a parent, "How many hours a day did you have the hearing aid in?," and the parent has to lie, because their feeling ashamed, but if there's that sense of judgment. It's so nuanced in the relationship, I think, where you're [inaudible 00:35:23] and you can feel as a parent whether that professional is, however short of long amount of time they have, isn't [00:35:30] judging you or treating you less than because you weren't able to do... you forgot your hearing aid. I know that's a huge issue for audiologists when they tell a parent, bring the hearing aide in and the parent doesn't, but I think if-
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: I just have to say that we hear from vets sometimes, in some of the professional groups, and they say people have come to the vet without their pet.
Janet DesGeorges...: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: And that one is just, is beautiful. And it happens, it happens to all of us.
Janet DesGeorges...: That is. Yeah. So [00:36:00] I think you've just struck on though that it's really important, in terms of understanding that families have a lot going on in their lives besides that one thing. And like I said, you still got to do your job, but there's just something about back to, "I'm here to support the family the best I can in today's thing," and it also then gets back to how you describe [00:36:30] and explain things and give families, whether it's video or written material, so that maybe even in that moment, if they can't hear everything or absorb everything, to understand that emotions are really a great thing, whether it's crying or laughter or stoicism, that's just one moment you're with a family. Don't believe that, just because they're not responding emotionally they don't feel what's going on or if they're sobbing that they can't [00:37:00] also still take in some information. So it's a very challenging profession, I would think, in a lot of ways to be an audiologist, but I appreciate, so much, the audiologists that have been in our lives and, anyway, I think I really appreciate your work and you context for understanding that in terms of supporting families. You got a good thing going on.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: And one of my biggest [00:37:30] things is, it's about parents taking a moment within all the chaos, within all their storm that they're experiencing and thinking about what is their actual goal and intention and what do they want out of their parenting experience, out of their relationship with their child beyond, will my child succeed and are they going to be okay? Those are important questions, but the real question is what is actually important to you? And [00:38:00] when you get clear on your values, everything else kind of falls into place. For some families, there's a huge value in education. That is the definition of success and inclusion in the world. And for other families, they're much more focused on the social aspect and they want their child to be integrated the community and education or academic success takes a back seat and those two things, there's not one right or wrong, that's just how different families are.
And if you are clear, then you don't go into [00:38:30] this head-to-head conflict in IEP meetings and head-to-head conflict with your child's teacher, because you know what you want, so you come in the first day and you say, "Please, really important that our child learns basic manners for a Kindergarten teacher." That's really important. If they learn their ABCs this year or next year when their six or seven, maybe that's their reading journey, it's going to be a little different, later on than other kids versus a family that comes [00:39:00] in and says, "Our child needs to hear every phoneme and we're not letting go of any sound and they're going to go six times to an audiologist to make sure they can tell the difference between S and Sh," and those two approaches are both right, if you know. Otherwise, you'll just be swimming in everybody else's opinion and direction what the teacher says, what the doctor says, what you read online, what your friend says. So that's what I think, is we got to get grounded and we got to get clear on what you really value and [00:39:30] that also might change, by the way.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yep. [crosstalk 00:39:35]
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: As they grow and as you change.
Janet DesGeorges...: Right. Oh my gosh. I just have to tell you. We're just getting ready to publish an article called, "It's more than the S Sound," and the featured photograph in the article is my daughter, Sarah, who for Halloween this year dressed up as Sally Sells Seashells Down by the Seashore. And it led to this conversation about [00:40:00] growing up and focusing on speech production and I think it's a really great article, because we're not slamming the idea that you shouldn't have good articulation at all. It's just, in the holistic nature of how to approach it as parents.
And, like you said, what your goals are. And I think like what you said, they change, there's different focuses at different times, but overall I'm thinking about what is it and what are our values and who do we want our [00:40:30] children to become. And I loved what you said about being able to think about what those goals are, and so they're not just focused on one small thing. This has been so great. I want to close today by just... I know we have both professionals listening today and parents, one just final piece of advice or thought for parents and one final piece of advice or thought for professionals.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Okay. I will start with my colleagues.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yes.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: [00:41:00] Professionals out there. And my biggest piece of advice is for you to be really clear on what you want to do and it might seem a little cheesy, but when you start out a career, you often have expectations or ideas of what that's going to be and that also might change over time, and you will discover that there's things that you don't agree with, things that you see are maybe bordering on ethical [00:41:30] and your impact in the profession starts where you're working, where you are, what you do. So speak up, go to meetings, change protocols. It has to be you, sorry to put that on your everyone, but the other option, I think, is burnout. It's like nobody understands, the system is broken, and that's really a hard place to be. So I think if it's not working, change it, fix it, get on [00:42:00] there as much as you can and know that there's a possibility of change and there's other people doing things differently and, as much as you can, find the places that you do have control over how you do things or what you're doing and do that.
Janet DesGeorges...: Wow.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: It's scary, because I think that's largely based on my experience of coming in, having some lofty ideas, and then saying, "I don't know if this is necessarily going to work out in this particular [00:42:30] setting." And then, it's okay, maybe it's not going to work in this setting, but hey, I can write, I can be on a podcast, I could run my own online support group meeting, retreats and different things that I'm doing that are separate from that work. That's one thing. With kindness, yeah? Self-kindness.
Janet DesGeorges...: Before you switch to the families, that is just such a beautiful statement, as well. I know we have a lot of family leaders listening today and family-to-family supporters and that is just [00:43:00] beautiful advice for them, as well. So thank you. Okay, now what do you have to say to us.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: Okay, okay, okay. Parents. First of all, you're rockstars, you're doing amazing, because hey, you're taking time to listen to this podcast, you're seeking resources, help, support, and that's the first step of anything. So yes, pat on your shoulder, gold star, and get into the habit of doing that for all the little things, because no one else is going to tell you that. [00:43:30] I mean, I will, right? But you have to be your own biggest cheerleader and that's a big role.
But my advice to you is to not forget the main point of connecting with your child, of going on walks, of taking pictures of them eating ice cream, of holiday traditions, that's coming up, making life [00:44:00] the point. Making the relationship and the love and the safety the goal of everything and not letting go of that, because we've seen so many cases of children who grow up and then say, "Here's what you worked so hard for and here's what I really needed, actually, was your presence, your attention, acceptance." So yeah, not that we can ever do it right, but I guess we can move the focus so. [00:44:30] I pray for you and wish for you that you will have many joyful and connected moments with your child, within all of the contexts of what's going on.
Janet DesGeorges...: Thank you so much. It's been our pleasure to have Dr. Lilach Saperstein with us here today. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope to see you again at a future episode of At the Table with Hands & Voices. Thank you again, Dr. Saperstein. It's been wonderful having you here [00:45:00] today. Thank you.
Dr. Lilach Saperstein: My pleasure. Thank you.
