Speaker 1 - Janet: Welcome to At the Table with Hands & Voices. I'm your host, Janet DesGeorges, and welcome to this episode, entitled Seasons of Leadership with our special guest, Karen Hopkins. This podcast series is brought to you by Hands & Voices, where we envision a world where children [00:00:30] who are deaf or hard of hearing have every opportunity to thrive and achieve their full potential. So excited to be introducing Karen to you today, but first this episode is sponsored by the Online Itinerate. Resources, training and community, all in one place, all for one price. You need knowledge, resources, and guidance so you can equip and empower your child to grow up without limits. The FRIEND [00:01:00] Academy helps you effectively navigate your journey as a parent or caregiver with a child who is deaf or hard of hearing without judgment. As a member of the FRIEND Academy, you are no longer alone. The Friend Academy is a community for all families, regardless of your child's age, stage, or communication mode. Go to www.friendacademy.net to learn more.
I am so excited today to be [00:01:30] bringing this episode to you on the seasons of leadership. I'll talk a little bit more in a minute about leadership, but first I want to introduce our special guest, Karen Hopkins. Karen is the executive director of the Maine Education Center for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing. She brings over 30 years of experience as a collaborative teacher of the deaf, special educator, early interventionist, and educational administrator to the team. Karen has lived experience [00:02:00] as a person who is deaf and the parent of a daughter who is hard of hearing. She is a co-leader and mentor to many family leaders in the community of family support and exemplifies what true partnership is in her interactions with others. Karen, welcome to our podcast today.
Speaker 2 - Karen: Hi Janet. It's nice [inaudible 00:02:22].
Speaker 1 - Janet: Yes, I'm so excited it to have you here. Leadership has always been a really big [00:02:30] area of focus for us at Hands & Voices. I think for me, as we've learned over the years, as we began to expand and as our chapters began to grow, this essential component of whether a chapter was successful or not began to be epitomized by the parents who were able to both be strong leaders and grow in their leadership skills. And so I just love the topic of leadership and when [00:03:00] I thought of a leader that I really respect and have known for a long time and watch you, how you have grown in your own leadership skills and someone I really admire. Thank you very much for being here.
Speaker 2 - Karen: Thank you for having me. It's really an honor to be here in this role.
Speaker 1 - Janet: Yeah, I think one of the true signs of leaders often is that they're very humble and [00:03:30] don't really like to talk about themselves. I want to just open the floor to you today, just knowing that your own leadership and career path really will help others as they listen to your story. So I was just hoping maybe just to get us going here today, just talk a little bit about your own life and career path and how you think of your own leadership development in your life.
Speaker 2 - Karen: Wow. That's kind [00:04:00] of a big ask. Let's go way back. So I grew up in Northern Maine in a little small town, a little mill town at the base of a mountain, and was the only deaf child in a hearing family and the only deaf child in my town. And I didn't really think of myself as a deaf individual. I thought of myself as just Karen and a daughter of a fabulous mom and dad that were so supportive and a wonderful community. And as I grew, I think I was somewhat of a [00:04:30] survivor in some ways. I think leaders have to be survivors. They have to be motivational. They have to be who they are, but also recognize other people, and I think I've been doing that since I was a little girl. And I think deaf and hard of hearing children do that often because they have to be always looking around them and seeing who's involved in their community, in their networks, in their classrooms, in their families. And I think that's really the first step of being a [00:05:00] leader is being able, do that, see who's with you in your community.
When I think back and growing up, I never met another deaf or hard of hearing person until I stepped foot on the campus of Gallaudet University when I was a teenager. I was 17 years old and a friend of mine said, "Hey, I found this place. I found this college that I think you need to go to." I'd never heard of Gallaudet. My parents, as they were, they did everything that they could for me, and they packed up our bags and we drove [00:05:30] to Washington, DC. I think that in itself is such an amazing thing, that my parents did that for me. They were such leaders in our community and they taught me that. They taught me how to be a leader and how to be innovative and how to think outside of the box.
We drove to Gallaudet and that totally changed my life. I went from being little Karen in Millinocket, Maine who didn't know anybody outside of her little community to somebody that was stepping foot [00:06:00] in another culture in many ways, the culture of Washington, DC, the big city. The culture of Gallaudet University and learning about deaf culture and myself and my identity as a deaf woman. I didn't know any sign language at that point, so it kind of opened up a whole world to me that I didn't even know exists. And I think I'm still processing that. I think I will always process that, as somebody that grew up not knowing deaf individuals.
Speaker 1 - Janet: Before you go on [00:06:30] with your story, it's so interesting that you correlate your experience as a deaf person growing up with sort of the foundation of leadership, because I would describe that as well as my own leadership journey, sort of the empowerment as a parent of a deaf child was I always look back to that foundational moment. That's really neat. You say your parents were really leaders themselves [00:07:00] and was there anybody else in your life growing up that sort of gave you that sense of self in terms of putting yourself out there as a deaf or hard of hearing child, even? I mean, I think that's really amazing to me.
Speaker 2 - Karen: Yeah. First my parents were very humble. You mentioned being humble when we started this interview. I don't think that either one of them would've categorized themself as leaders, but when I think of strong leaders [00:07:30] and leadership styles, they had that. They were very quiet people, but they found ways in and around to have a vision for me, a vision for our family, and they made it happen. I think that's what makes strong leaders.
When I think about people that inspired me in other ways growing up, it was my teachers. I had those core teachers throughout my life, three or four of them, that really stand out to me, that were always encouraging, always motivating, and always had vision ahead. [00:08:00] They always were encouraging me to look ahead, not look here and now. I think if you look here and now as a leader, you're going to make a big mistake and you're not going to be successful. You have to see way, way, way ahead and inch your way through until you finally get to where you're going. And that's what those teachers would do to me. Those three or four always encouraged me to think way ahead in my life.
Speaker 1 - Janet: That is so great. Let's get back to your story. You were at Gallaudet University and just take me through kind [00:08:30] of both your career and then your steps in different job positions that brought out your leadership and what you learned during those different seasons.
Speaker 2 - Karen: Sure. So the season of being at Gallaudet brought me many things, as I suggested. Most specifically related to my identity, but also it kind of forced me to think of who I was as a person, because I was so shy and so quiet and so timid that working my way through [00:09:00] those four years at Gallaudet was a challenge. Trying to figure out, do I fit in with the deaf community, the hearing community, where am I? All of that, and just being able to get through it. I think you have to persevere and get through things in life to be a leader, so getting through those four years was challenging, but it was also amazing. I also had a lot of health issues in college. I would have seizures and couldn't walk. So I would lose my right side three or four or five times throughout that four [00:09:30] years of college in DC.
A lot of things have happened to me in my life and I think my parents and my family would say that I was stubborn and I didn't give up on a lot of things, and once I set my mind to something, it usually happens one way or the other. When I knew I wanted to finish college in four years, I just made it happen. I didn't care if I was in a wheelchair or a walker or walking on my own two feet. That was a big out of my journey and friendships and different people that supported me in those [00:10:00] years, they knew my goal and they knew my mission and they also knew they weren't going to change it.
Finishing Gallaudet, I just knew I had to come home. Most of my friends were going other places. They were to the west coast of the United States, they were going to the south, they were staying in DC. I had to go home, not only because my fiance was at home at that point and my family was at home, I knew that I had to make a difference. [00:10:30] I think at that point in my life, I again was looking way far ahead, as well as looking back. Looking back on my own life and the things that I felt worked, and then looking ahead at the things that didn't work for me and how do I fix things for deaf and hard of hearing children and their families based on stories that my mom had said. I knew I just had to go home to do it.
I went home and I had an elementary education degree, so I'm going to be a teacher. I was a deaf [00:11:00] woman and going back to Maine without a deaf ed degree, education, but not deaf ed, what can I do? I started teaching kindergarten, but I couldn't hear the children. So I said, "This is not going to work." I just thought of other careers and other degrees, and I just went back to school at the same time I was teaching and started working individually with deaf children one on one in public schools, and I loved it. Just being able to support that one child getting integrated in their [00:11:30] community and their classroom. This was Northern Maine, so the School for the Deaf was in Southern Maine.
Finding a deaf community for these children became my goal in whatever that community was. Connecting this mom and that mom, that dad with that mom, connecting this one child that I was working with with other children. That kind of became my mission and started with this one little deaf boy that I was working with, and when I saw that spark in him and the spark in his family, I said, " [00:12:00] This can't stop here. It has to go from here to another child and another family and another family." I was working from that situation into early intervention.
As you know, Janet, the family piece of early intervention is just the core. It's the core of everything we do. I started connecting families with families and deaf children with deaf children, meaning babies. And I said, "This is where I need to be, because it begins here with babies. With young, young children, and then we're going to [00:12:30] work our way up." When I think about my journey, starting with that one little deaf boy and realizing that even he was too old, that I had to go way back and start with the families in their homes, in their living rooms, and just keep going forward.
That's kind of what my career has been, starting with the babies. Then I moved down to the School for the Deaf and was a coordinator of preschoolers and the preschool program at Mackworth Island Preschool at Governor Baxter School for the Deaf. [00:13:00] And in that program, I was with three and four and five year olds. Again, moving up a little bit more and started recognizing the value in the social engagement. As a leader here at Mackworth Island at Maine Educational Center for the Deaf, started piecing different people together to make my program stronger.
Cause one thing I've learned as a leader is you can't do it by yourself. You have to pull in some other people. Recognize your own strengths, but also [00:13:30] know your weaknesses and know where your gaps are. So I started realizing that by pulling other team members into my team and still pulling those families in, this preschool program began to grow and it grew, and it grew. We started with nine children and we now have over 30. A lot of pulling people in together started to hit with me that, as a leader, if I'm going to keep making this difference in deaf children's lives, I need to pull more people in and connect people. [00:14:00] It was a lot about connections to me.
From that job, I went on to become the director of statewide education, and that was more three to 22 year old, 21 year old, so school aged children while I was still doing family intervention. I just kept getting older and older with children and more responsibilities as my career went on. I went back to early intervention for a while and then I became birth to 22 director [00:14:30] of statewide education. I was overseeing the state services for deaf and hard of hearing children with infants, toddlers, preschoolers, and school aged children and outreach. I felt that I finally got where I wanted to be in many ways from that little girl in northern Maine, having my hands in every area of the state, trying to make sure that families had what they needed, the connections were made and deaf and hard of hearing children were getting more than I got.
Speaker 1 - Janet: [00:15:00] This is so interesting, Karen, because I'm thinking about your position and your influence in terms of being across from a family, across from a deaf child, and then as your career has moved your positions in terms of being a teacher then a coordinator and a director of statewide, and now the position you're in, talk a little bit about creating teams. [00:15:30] Because I think as people move forward in their leadership areas, we often find both the responsibility and the privilege of leading and coaching others. Talk a little bit about your growth and not just thinking about serving and changing the world for deaf kids or deaf families, but how you've managed your teams through your career.
Speaker 2 - Karen: That's been a real learning [00:16:00] curve. I think when you're somebody that wants to fix everything, you think you can do it by yourself. And one of the biggest things I started to realize with more education and more leadership opportunities was that I couldn't, so as you said, having to build a strong team. I think the best way to do that is to listen more than you talk, and that's really hard. It's hard to step back and just let things unfold. I think as I [00:16:30] would build various teams throughout my career, taking that step back and coaching them and watching to see what was going to happen without taking control, it's hard to do. I will be completely honest, there's been times that I have failed at it and there's times that I've been successful with it. The times that I think I've failed with that, it's because it was something that I felt I had created and backing away, moving on to a higher position, getting another certification, a different degree, and moving up [00:17:00] in my baby of a program, letting somebody else do that, and watching another team do that was really hard.
But then when I learned to let somebody else do it and another team do it, pulling in various people off other teams together, and finding strengths, I need somebody that's strong with communication. I need somebody strong with technology. I need somebody that's really good with family support. Somebody that's get education and pulling those teams together for whatever [00:17:30] it is your goal is, has been something that I've really been focusing on, especially in the past five or 10 years.
I think of transformational leadership in this discussion, in that transformational leaders always have a vision as to where they're going, but they recognize that they have to work with teams and pulling different teams together and making connections for that goal and always knowing where you're going is really, really important. I think with teams themselves, it's all [00:18:00] about relationship building, trust building both ways. I had to trust that they would carry out my mission, but also trust that it was okay if it changed and it evolved.
Speaker 1 - Janet: That's really good. How, as a leader over the years, have you learned how to make difficult decisions? What are some of the things that you do, go through the process of, when you're faced with a difficult decision?
Speaker 2 - Karen: [00:18:30] I have a few things just pop up in my head that were really, really challenging. I think you have to recognize that you're not always going to be the favorite person, that somebody is not going to like that decision. That's really, really hard because when you go into leadership, you do it to make change, you do because you care, and you do it because you want to support people. That's why I went into leadership. But I guess you just have to keep that vision in the forefront. [00:19:00] Again, I keep going back to the vision, but vision, and then the other thing that I have always done is keep the children and the families in the forefront. The vision's big, right. You always have this huge vision where you're going, your goal, but how you get there step by step by step is what works. This step may work, the next one may not work, and this next decision may be really hard because you know that some people are not going to like that decision.
When I've been faced [00:19:30] with those tasks, I just try to keep the kids in the forefront and make a decision based on what I know is ethical or what I believe is ethical, and people may disagree to that, what I believe is best for children, what is legal. Sometimes it's a legal decision that's hard, but you have to follow the legal path. Most importantly, it's that I know we're getting to that vision, and sometimes you just have to move things out of the way a little bit.
What [00:20:00] I've had to do after those hard decisions is circle back and go back to square one with trust building. [inaudible 00:20:07] do that, especially a few times in this position as executive director. It's hard. I am responsible for the whole state of Maine's deaf education and I have a vision and our board has a vision, our state of department of ed has a vision, and individuals and individual programs, departments, agencies may not share that same vision. [00:20:30] Building trust and recognizing that you have to inch along is hard, but keeping that vision in front is what we're doing.
Speaker 1 - Janet: I really love that, and I recently had to go through a process of probably one of the most difficult decisions I've made in a long time, just because there was no real clear cut answer. Even after processing, thinking about what you discussed, in terms of keeping your eye on the vision, the prize. I've experienced [00:21:00] that too. This one recently was not quite as cut and dry for me, or I guess the answer wasn't coming to me really clearly. I really remember three things that really helped me get to the decision, which was number one, to look at all the facts. Make sure all the facts are before you so that you can kind of parse through that.
Number two ... Actually number one is still around the objective information in [00:21:30] front of you, but also what I call the gut instinct or subjective information was how was I feeling about it? What was my gut instinct about what I thought needed to happen? That was number two. Sometimes those two were in opposition of each other because I wasn't quite trusting my own gut instinct at the time, or I couldn't really quite parse through my emotions of it.
And then number three, getting good counsel and input [00:22:00] from others. When I look back at that period of a month where it just wasn't clear, those three things ... That was one of the things I've learned recently that just helped me so much that I just keep coming back to in terms of leaders who are going through something and don't know what to do to just kind of pull back and do those three things. I've been thinking about that, but I think it is still in context to what you talked about, which is keeping [00:22:30] the prize in front of you, keeping the vision in front of you. How is this going to help or support families?
Speaker 2 - Karen: I think what you just said about getting counseling and support, that's huge. I think back to those decisions that I've had to make this year and through my career, I did have my core of confidants that I knew I could trust, whether it be my leadership team, whether it be different colleagues, denomination. I've talked to you before. Just different ... Really reaching out to people because I am [00:23:00] one person and you can't do these big jobs alone. You can't do any job alone. But that reaching out for support for coaching, for mentoring, for ideas, running something by another person, sometimes just saying it out loud.
Like watching, I like to watch people's expressions. So I'm thinking of doing X, Y, and Z, and sometimes I do that with three or four people. This is what I'm thinking, and I ask the same exact question to three or four people and I watch their face. [00:23:30] If their face is puzzling, then I know maybe I need to take a step back. If their body language goes forward, then that's a cool idea, then I know I'm going in the right direction. That's a tool that I always had in my pocket. I'm a big facial expressions person. You need people in these jobs. You do.
Speaker 1 - Janet: That's really good. I feel the same way. That number three about having confidants or people you [00:24:00] trust and I think you're right. It's good to have different types of people who have different lenses by which they look at things or maybe their own leadership style is different, so the advice they're going to give you is a little different. I remember one person, a few years ago I was struggling with something and he said, "If you had to make the decision right now, what would it be?" So that, he forced me to go to my gut instinct on it, and I had not yet gone through my paces [00:24:30] of all the facts and the information, which took several months after that. In the end, I kept thinking back to that conversation because that was the decision that turned out to be what was best, but I then didn't have the confidence at first to make that decision because I didn't have all the facts in front of me. Once I was able to marry those things ...
I just have been thinking about this so much, just because I think those of us in leadership positions often are [00:25:00] asked to make difficult decisions. It's funny, sometimes I hear people will say to me, "Man, I wish I was the director of Hands & Voices, I wish I was in your position," and then other people say, "I don't ever want to be in your position." Because it's a mixed bag of awesome, wonderful responsibility and a gift of ... What we are as leaders are really servants of others and helping others grow. [00:25:30] When you think about what you love about leadership and where you're at in your life, what are some of the things that you think about?
Speaker 2 - Karen: I think the first thing that comes to mind is relationships and the different relationships I've formed over the years and in different leadership roles. The friendships I've formed and then thinking about my staff and the families and the children and statewide connection, the nationwide connection. It's all about that for me. It's [00:26:00] about connecting with other people that I think can help me do what I think needs to happen.
Speaker 1 - Janet: That's really good. I thought of you right away in thinking about any leadership conversation because Karen, you've been so instrumental in your relationships with families and family leaders in your state and around the country in terms of this really nuanced balance as [00:26:30] a professional. I know you're also a parent of a daughter who's hard of hearing, but in your role as a professional to come alongside family leaders, as they're developing their own skills. Is there anything that you ... What would you want to say to other family based on your own experiences or to other families who are kind of emerging as leaders?
Speaker 2 - Karen: I think it goes back again to relationships. Relationships and [00:27:00] trust, both of those two things that go together. Building strong relationships with professionals, building strong relationships with other parents, and starting small. Do one little project together and see what happens. Find somebody that you trust and coach them or let them coach you and then try it and step back and see what happens, but be right there again to support. That's what I had the honor of doing in Maine with so many different, amazing families is being able to kind of coach [00:27:30] them. I could see things in families that I don't think they could see themselves.
Before I had my daughter that was hard of hearing, I was simply a professional. So being able to work side by side in an area that I felt I couldn't do myself because I wasn't a parent of a deaf child, I needed another parent to talk to another parent and connect them. When I started doing that, I just saw such strength and identifying the strength in those parents verbally to them and saying, "Hey, you do [00:28:00] this really well," and then stepping back and letting them do it and encouraging them to do it without taking control. That's really hard for professionals that are in leadership positions, educational positions, medical positions, to trust that somebody that is not the professional maybe you can do your job better than you can.
Speaker 1 - Janet: Wow. That's perfect, because that was going to be my next question is what advice do you have for professionals who are sometimes in a system where theoretically [00:28:30] they're being asked to the family voice be present, to have families engaged, to have family leaders around them, and yet they struggle sometimes in that. I think your advice you've already given it is great around stepping back, letting families emerge in their leadership skills. Anything else you would say to the professionals who are listening here today?
Speaker 2 - Karen: I think you have to take baby steps [00:29:00] because it's hard and you have either a lesson plan or a clinical ... You have an hour in your clinic, in your therapy session. Maybe you're a Part C director or an [edu 00:29:14] coordinator in your state and you have a job to do. But we as professionals and we as families now know that this parent piece is so critical. Trust the research, trust the science of parent to parent support and parent involvement, and give [00:29:30] one little job or talk with a parent and really look at them and say, "There's something strong in this parent. What is it?" Find that one little, tiny thing and make it happen and step back and watch it unfold. I guarantee you're going to be hooked.
You will be hooked, but you have to do it in baby steps, because if you jump and say, "I'm going to bring 10 parents into my board or I'm going to always have a parent at the table without really defining it and without [00:30:00] really trusting the relationship, then it's not going to happen. But you have to start small with one parent that you trust and kind of baby step it along and talk about it together. I know this one mom and I have done this for years together and throughout our relationship, we talked about it. I would let go and say, "That was hard, but you did it kind of cool." Then she would say, "I don't think I can do this," and we just kind of inched our way through. I think we grew up together in that way, but just watching her and her watching me and building strengths [00:30:30] from each other slowly I think is what worked.
I think with edu programs right now and some educational institutions, they're putting this out there. You have to have parent involvement, parent engagement, but I think professionals don't know what that means. So it starts really tiny with one parent that you enjoy being with and starting some little project together is my recommendation.
Speaker 1 - Janet: I love that, Karen. That's so good. I could go all day on this conversation. [00:31:00] I wish we had more time to explore even where you're at now, looking back. I'll close with this question. I'll try to make it a question, it's just kind of bubbling up in my head. Thinking about where you're at today in your life, in your career, and where you started from, thinking about the beginning of your story and how some of those foundations of some of the adversity you have overcame, or ways you had to [00:31:30] put yourself out there as a deaf or hard of hearing individual that maybe hearing kids didn't, what do you think about in terms of your seasons of leadership, where you're at now from where you come from? Any last comments or closing conversation about that?
Speaker 2 - Karen: When I read the title of this, Seasons of Leadership, and thinking about seasons in general, I thought of change and [00:32:00] evolution. Those are the two big things that came out to me with this podcast is that you had the word seasons. Seasons are beautiful and seasons bring change, they bring evolution, and you never really know. Are you're going to have a snowstorm? Are you going to have a fire? Are you going to have a one sunny day? Are you going to have a blizzard? You have to be ready for the unexpected in leadership and you have to be ready to embrace it. I think back to that baby steps all the way until you reach that [00:32:30] vision, and that ultimate goal, what you're trying to get, is what you need to do. Leadership is not easy, but if you have passion and you have commitment and you are committed to instilling your passion to others, then it'll happen.
Speaker 1 - Janet: Wonderful. That is a great way to wrap up our episode here today. Before I close, I want to just thank you so much, Karen, for being here. I think it was just [00:33:00] such good advice and what a rich conversation. This has been really fun.
Before we close today, I want to thank our other sponsor for our episode here today. We want to thank the American School for the Deaf. The American School for the Deaf Online Academy is the first online education platform serving deaf and hard of hearing students [00:33:30] from all over the world. Currently open to students in middle school and high school, the Online Academy helps connect students everywhere with certified teachers and highly experienced staff to provide a specialized education specifically for them. The application deadline for the 2022, '23 school year is March 15th. Learn more at asdonline.academy.
Thanks again, Karen, for being here. For those of you who are listening today on this [00:34:00] podcast, we invite you to share this podcast and all the episodes that we're producing in this season to share with others. So thank you again, Karen, it's been great having you and for you, our listeners, thank you for being here with us today.
