Janet DesGeorges...: Hey, everyone. Welcome to At The Table With Hands & Voices. We're so excited to have you joining us today. I'm Janet DesGeorgess, your host for this episode. Today's episode is Letting Go of Ego. I'm so excited to have our guest with us today, but first, let me tell you a [00:00:30] little bit about our podcast series. At the Table With Hands & Voices is produced by Hands & Voices. We aim to educate and entertain parents who have children who are deaf or hard of hearing and the professionals in the field. We also believe that this is a great podcast for families who have kids with other special needs, so we're really excited to have you here with us.
The podcast will cover topics related [00:01:00] to family engagement, leadership, and the family journey in raising our children. Let me tell you a little bit about Hands & Voices. We're a parent-driven organization that supports families with children who are deaf or hard of hearing without a bias around communication modes or methodologies. We envision a world where children who are deaf and hard of hearing have every opportunity to thrive and to achieve their [00:01:30] full potential, celebrating all families and their diverse cultures, ensuring equity and inclusion for all. Before I introduce our guest for today, let me tell you a little it about The Online Itinerate.
You need knowledge, resources, and guidance, so you can equip and empower your child to grow up without limits. The FRIEND Academy helps you effectively navigate your journey as a parent or caregiver with a child who is deaf or [00:02:00] hard of hearing without judgment. As a member of the FRIEND Academy, you are no longer alone. The FRIEND Academy is a community for all families, regardless of your child's age, stage, or communication mode. Go to www.friendacademy.net to learn more. We thank The Online Itinerate for sponsoring this episode. Now, to our episode, I'm so excited to introduce to all of you, Helen Leiser. [00:02:30] Today, we're going to be talking about letting go of ego. Helen, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Helen Leiser: Hi everybody. My name is Helen. I am the proud parent of two girls who are deaf, and they're also teenagers. Every time recently I've been telling someone their ages, people give me their [inaudible 00:02:50] eyes like, "Oh. I'm so sorry."
And I say, "You know what? I really actually enjoy hanging out with my kids. They're good. They're good, young women with passion and great [00:03:00] intelligent thoughts. I like hanging out with them. They teach me every day how to be a better person, so I appreciate them a lot."
Janet DesGeorges...: Awesome. Yeah, so today we're going to be talking about letting go of ego. What does that mean, and how did that come about for you?
Helen Leiser: This came about for me, because I keep learning about what ego means [00:03:30] and how it affects how we are in the world, how we present ourselves, how we react and respond to different things. For me, it means how I show up as a parent, how I show up as a leader. There have been some rough lessons along the way, and it seems to be what I'm wanting to really talk about these days, because it has such an effect in how we are as [00:04:00] leaders and as parents.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. When I think about that concept of letting go of ego, there's something healthy about ego too, right? It's an ego. We have to have some sense of self esteem or confidence. I know you're not talking about that part of ego, so tell me what you're thinking in terms of what you're getting at.
Helen Leiser: The definition [00:04:30] of ego is kind of that, and it's kind of along the lines of what we, or at least what I usually look at or consider when I think of someone who's got a big ego, it is that inflated feeling of pride in your own superiority over others, that you're better than. I think that there's a part of our ego where it is about [00:05:00] what kind of gets us up and going in the morning, but there's that other side where it gets in the way. We can either be inclusive in lifting others up, or we can just want that acclaim for ourselves.
For me, when I first started out as a leader for Hands & Voices many, many years ago, I wanted to [00:05:30] receive the recognition for the work that I was doing for our children and our families. I was very passionate about it. I had a lot of emotion around it, and I wanted to be the achieving our mission. It was actually a partner of ours, at Department of Education, reached out to me and asked to have coffee with me one day. It was actually Thanksgiving week, so I did.
She said, "You know, Helen. We really appreciate [00:06:00] you. We appreciate your passion, and we really want to partner with you, and you're making that challenging for us. The way that you are approaching this is kind of off putting," and it was a hard thing to hear, but it was so critical for me to hear. I have thanked her many times over the years, because that conversation changed my approach, because then I realized, " [00:06:30] Hang on. Sure, I can work on my own, and I can get us there, but can I really? Is this about me, or is this about our children and our families?"
Because if it's really about our children and our families, then in partnership is how we're going to meet our mission, not Helen crossing the finish line by herself. It's, "We are crossing the finish line together," so it's gathering that input. [00:07:00] It's getting other people's ideas, asking questions, and listening more than talking. By no means am I perfect, but I also have learned that it's my insecurities, that when I really let my insecurities arise, and I'm afraid to show that I don't actually know what I'm doing," that's when that pride gets in the way. Then, I forget [00:07:30] the team, and then it's more the "I" effect.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. I love that. Just thinking about what a healthy ego does in terms of having self confidence and the ability to, I think as a leader you grow and you often have so many things that you have to sort of get through in terms of your own self confidence, but thinking about ego in the way that you're talking about it, not the healthy kind of ego, but the idea [00:08:00] that what's driving anything you're doing is how it makes you look, whether you get the credit for it.
I've been thinking about this, and I think that one of the interesting things is, like you said, I think we tend to think of the negative part of having a big ego or a swelled ego. You sort of can pick those people out in a crowd, right? You can just tell they're all about them. They might even do some sort of like false [00:08:30] humility sort of thing, but you can tell it's fake. They still really feel like the center of the universe is around them, but I also think ego comes out in different ways, besides just having a swelled head or thinking about yourself more than you should.
I think it can also come out through fear, so it can be, "How is this going to make me look?" I think that [00:09:00] fear really comes out through control like, "I have to control this or else, because it's going to make me look bad." It goes back to ego, so I think a lot of us probably can really relate to control issues. We may not always say, "Oh. Yeah, no. I've got my ego under control. I know how I mess up all the time," but I think this leaks out or finds a way through control issues. Have [00:09:30] you found that to be true in your life experience?
Helen Leiser: Oh, absolutely. I think in my day job, I'm a leader, so I feel like I'm expected to know how to handle every situation and know everything. I have done things out of that fear of either being found out that I'm a fake and that I don't know anything, [00:10:00] or how many times I've sat at an IEP meeting with a family, and I have no idea what's going on right now, but I have to pretend. Really, what I've started to do really only in the last few years is like, "Okay. I have no clue what's going on right here, so I'm just going to take a deep breath, and I'm just going to ask a few more questions and listen."
I've also started giving myself permission to [00:10:30] say, "Hey, you know what? I just really need to think about this a little bit longer. Can I get back to you tomorrow?", kind of a thing, and I have found that people are really okay with that. There have been times when I've been secure enough in my vulnerability, even to say, "I'm not really sure what to do right now," and that's really hard because, again, I keep going back to, "I'm supposed to know everything." Even as a parent, [00:11:00] I'm supposed to know everything and be able to handle every situation.
I'm a human being, and I have to give myself that permission, just like oftentimes in our work at Hands & Voices, we kind of mentor and guide our parents that we're working with, and kind of give them permission to be a voice at the table, and to look at themselves as equal partners at [00:11:30] the table in an IEP meeting of 15 other individuals. I have to give myself that same permission as well to be vulnerable and to say, "I need to take a moment and pause," maybe ask a few more questions. In that, the more that I put that into practice, the more successful and positive the outcome has been, [00:12:00] but boy it can be really challenging to get there.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. You gave two really great examples of places where I think we can really practice this, both in parent-to-parent support. You know, if it's about you or your ego, when you're even interacting with another parent, we do such a disservice because the whole point of parent-to-parent support is really to uphold, lift and [00:12:30] support the person you're sitting across from.
A lot of that comes through just sort of organic conversation, and if you let your ego, your life story, or what you think that parent should do, you're totally minimizing the whole point of parent-to-parent support. I think that's a great area to just be thinking about, "Is my ego getting in the way? Do I need to make sure that this parent knows who I am or what I have to give [00:13:00] them, versus just being present for them and interacting based on their needs, their hopes, and goals?
Helen Leiser: Yeah. It's such a fascinating journey and such a great opportunity to learn more about ourselves as well, but it's also changed the way that I parent as well. Really, instead [00:13:30] of telling my girls how to handle the situation, I can share what I'm looking for, but asking them more questions so that they can think through, "Well, what are they looking for?", and then having a conversation together so that they do understand like, "Well, this is what I do expect from you, as your parent," or I may have a lesson preparing them for life or something, but involving [00:14:00] them and engaging them in a conversation as opposed to just trying to control it completely, because I'm so afraid.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. You know, another area where I think ego gets in the way is when we are wronged.
Helen Leiser: Yeah.
Janet DesGeorges...: When somebody does something that's not fair, it's so easy to go down the path of losing the whole focus of what you're trying to achieve with just getting into the [inaudible 00:14:29] of emotion, [00:14:30] especially when you feel you've been wronged, and it's unfair are not true. I remember a friend once, when I was going through something and somebody had attacked me, and she said, "Hey, don't take it personally."
And I'm like, "But it's personal. They were talking about me when they said it, and it's not true," and I was just so focused on that. She helped me process that, and what that helped me was to sort of pull back away from, of [00:15:00] course, you can't just not feel things. Emotions and feelings are going to come, but to process any experience when you feel like you're wronged or, say, somebody credit for your idea. All of these things come up all day, and these are the things that sort of bruise our ego, or like, "Hey, I should get credit for this," or "That person dissed me in a meeting."
When we can process and sort of let go, not-not standing up for yourself. [00:15:30] I'm not saying that, but just in the context to any situation, you have to ask yourself, "Is it more important for everyone to understand that what happened, or that person, what they accused me of isn't true, or do I need to stay focused on what we're doing here?" I found that's really gotten me over the hump, and it's hard, because talking about letting go of ego, I think letting go, it's a great name of something, Helen.
[00:16:00] There's something about that, that we have the power to do. We can let go of it. In certain, not only do we need to have a general awareness of this, but also in particular really hard situations. If you can let go of the need to be right, the need to be affirmed, the need to, if somebody gets it wrong, make sure everybody else knows it, and just stay focused on the end goal [crosstalk 00:16:24], that has just saved me, I can't tell you, countless times.
Helen Leiser: It is so true. [00:16:30] I've become a huge fan of the Ted Lasso show. I look at this, and I re-watch episodes because I just think, "This is leadership right here." Ted Lasso actually walks into this position, having no clue what he's doing and doesn't even know what offsides is in the game of soccer, but as a leader, he lifts everyone up around him. He [00:17:00] takes the towel boy who gets promoted as an assistant coach, because a) he learned his name and acknowledged him as a human being, he took his ideas and he implemented him, and then he promoted him to assistant coach of this professional football team. His focus is on building up each individual [00:17:30] and that, when that happens, when they get to that level, then they will begin to win their games.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah.
Helen Leiser: You know, sometimes I know I'm just like, "I've got to win, win, win, win," but his approach is, "We will get there. It might take us a little bit longer, but in the meantime, we're actually going to be a team moving forward and reaching that end goal." When he is wronged, he accepts the apology, [00:18:00] and he moves on. His thought is like, "That's in the past, and life happens. Sometimes what life throws at us, we react in a way that's really sometimes not very kind to others, but we know that's not the true essence of who that person is," and so he's like, "Let's keep moving forward together, lifting, and supporting one another so [00:18:30] that we can achieve that end goal."
I love this show, because there's also the Coach Nate character, who is this sweet, young man, and is so excited when he is seen and acknowledged. Then, his ideas really are good, and they are fruitful for the team in their games, but you also see in his story that he wants that acknowledgement from his dad. When he doesn't get it, then his ego, that [00:19:00] inflammatory and that pride, gets hurt. Then, he starts snapping at other people and starts treating other people on the team in a really mean and cruel way. Then, he reports something out to the press about Coach Lasso, and he creates this situation that's ugly and very much unlike being a member of the team. Then, he walks away.
I just think that, right [00:19:30] there, is the perfect definition of what happens when our ego, that pride, that pain, that hurt, that fear gets in the way of what we're really wanting, and really that there is another way to do this. I struggle too with, "I want that recognition. I want people to know that this was my idea," so [00:20:00] I have to keep reminding myself just, "My job, as a leader, is to lift others up. My job, as a parent, is to lift my girls up." I always say it takes a village to raise a child, but for many years I was like, "But actually, it's just me," but it's not. It takes all of us working together to raise up.
Janet DesGeorges...: I love that. Yeah. [00:20:30] I love Ted Lasso too. There's another character on there that's an assistant coach, that's real quiet. As you're talking about surrounding yourself with others and lifting others up, I think one of the ways, too, how ego gets in the way is when you always think you're right. It may be true that you're right or your way, or people who say, "I'm just going to do this, because I know I'll [00:21:00] do it in the way I want it done." This ability to let go of, not just your thought life of who you think you are, but really surrounding yourself with people, with other talents and gifts. That other coach I'm referring to is the one that's kind of quiet but really wise.
Helen Leiser: Coach Beard.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. Coach Beard. Yeah, so anyway, but just thinking too, in terms of working as a team, I thought of, as you were talking about that, in context to team, which [00:21:30] I think all of us in our lives and worlds do, regardless of our position of authority, if we don't have the ability to work together, draw out, respect, and acknowledge other people's gifts and talents, and I think particularly like that, because I'm an extrovert. In any circle I'm in, I'm always the one. I have to always watch how much am I talking, how much am I saying? But I've been thinking a lot lately, too, about introvert leadership too. There is something [00:22:00] in context to letting go of our own egos in allowing others to be a part of team and really holding up their gifts that are different than yours, because we really need to have people around us that are different from us.
Helen Leiser: You know, you're so right. I have found that when I legitimately surround myself with people with different perspectives, different lived experience, different thoughts, and different talents, [00:22:30] I grow as a result of that, whereas if I'm just with people who are always in agreement with me, it feels great, but I'm actually not moving forward myself. More importantly, I'm not moving the mission forward, but whereas if I really to sit back, I listen, I include, and I ask questions, then I get to grow personally as an individual. But again, the outcome, [00:23:00] which is our mission that we're striving for, we get to do that together, and that's whether it's corporate business, the local Taco Bell, or here at Hands & Voices, or even in my own family. Truly, the more inclusive I am, the better I am, just as I get so much more. I gain so [00:23:30] much more from it.
Janet DesGeorges...: Wow.
Helen Leiser: But again, I have those moments where I let that pettiness of, for me it's, "I've got to prove myself," and that's what trips me up.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. You know, we all have different, I'm sure people listening here today, and even for [00:24:00] ourselves and thinking about how this plays out in terms of ego sort of finding a way into your life, I had this aha moment, because I do a lot of public speaking. Where else in the world is it not all about you? You get up on a stage, you get a microphone, the lights are on you, you have an audience in front of you.
Helen Leiser: It feels amazing.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. My husband's always said I never met a microphone I didn't like, and I also have done it for a long [00:24:30] time, and feel really strongly that I have something to contribute to a topic or a conversation. I'm excited to be there, but as I've done it over the years, I began to understand, honestly, that it really isn't about what I'm saying or doing up on the stage in front of everyone, because as a listener in an audience, when other people are speaking, it's all about what that person is [00:25:00] saying and how I'm perceiving it, thinking about it, or taking it in, in terms of thinking about, "Oh. Oh, I can think of a situation that this person is talking about," or "That's a good tool for that."
The true essence of public speaking isn't about you as a speaker. It's about the person on the other end listening and how they're taking what you're giving, so I think that first came to me as a relief of when I got off a stage and went, "Oh. That was awful. I [00:25:30] sucked." I still sometimes feel like that. Sometimes I feel really good like, "Oh. That was awesome," but I realized that the whole thing wasn't about me. It was about, "Did the listener get what they needed?", and it's a really freeing thing to be. I just remember that being, letting go of ego is a positive. It can be a struggle, but [00:26:00] it's really a positive. It creates freedom in your life, I think. You know, how people just get so nervous about making the wrong decision or that, and I just think there's real freedom in letting go of ego.
Helen Leiser: Oh. It is so less stressful. There really is freedom in letting it go. I remember I used to, and I'm sure I still do at times, but in a conversation with another person, [00:26:30] I'm horrified to think of how many parents I did this with. They'd be talking, and I would just basically cut them off, and then just start vomiting, word vomiting, all over them. But when I stop doing that and I just listen, and maybe ask a question or two, and then listen, their experience is so much, but they walk away feeling so good. There are times when I'm like, "But [00:27:00] I have so much to say," but you're right.
That individual walked away feeling good, so then they're going to come back to me because they know that I can be trusted, that they'll walk away feeling heard, and I will have compassion and respect for them, and they'll want to come back. Sometimes it is really hard for me as well to just not take it over, [00:27:30] and sometimes I will catch it. Sometimes I'll acknowledge, "Oops. I'm talking. I'm going to stop talking right now and just listen to you," and we kind of can both chuckle about it, and they see that, "Hey, you know what?", I recognized I was able to apologize right then and there, and turn that ship around so that they can still walk away feeling good. It's funny and then I walk away actually feeling really good as well.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. [00:28:00] Not only is there freedom in letting go of ego, I think there's some power there too, and I'm thinking of those of us who have kids who are deaf or with special needs, and go through the IEP process, and IEPs are the place at the table in schools where you're sort of negotiating for your children's needs and the services that they're going to get. It's usually tense. [00:28:30] You usually feel nervous about it, and yet the strategies for getting the services really comes from being a strong advocate, which I think letting go of your own ego is necessary in that process.
We always talked about staying focused on the needs of your child, or if you're an advocate for another family, staying focused on what the needs are. I think that's another place and an example where when you're able to let go of making yourself look good or [00:29:00] thinking this is all about you, you sort of release that. Then, it allows you really to be an effective advocate, I think, because you're able to sometimes manage your emotions better, and then just whatever's going on in the room to come back to, "Let's focus on the needs of our child in this particular context."
Helen Leiser: Yeah, and I think that can be really challenging. I remember one year, for several years this family had me go with them [00:29:30] to their son's IEP. It dawned on me in year three. Well, it didn't dawn on me. She told me the third year, is that every year she's waiting to see the draft IEP and his current levels, and with such anxiety. She was going through a form of grief every year. [00:30:00] When she said that to me, it just stopped me in my tracks, because I was angry for her. Everyone [inaudible 00:30:11].
I thought, "Okay. Anger doesn't get us anywhere, and all it does is give me a stomachache," but I think then I realized, "Okay, so my role here really is, because this is such an emotional [00:30:30] moment for her and her husband, there's so much angst, because there's so much going on with this kid," and that I really shifted in the way that I was their advocate and in my support of them as well. It changed the way we had our meeting before the IEP meeting and afterwards, and I really looked out for them during the IEP, and oftentimes would ask for breaks [00:31:00] for them if I was sensing that they just needed to take a breath, so that they could kind of recenter themselves to then speak up and be the voice of their son's IEP meeting.
But I know for me, it can be really hard to control my emotions in those times. Oftentimes, I would ask my husband to kind of take over. We kind of had this signaling. I kind of tap him, or he could just sense that I was just [00:31:30] getting too emotional, so I also learned different techniques where I would just ask a question. Instead of blurting out what I was feeling, I would just ask a question because that gave me also the space to just take a deep breath and try to calm myself down. I use that technique still today, like in meetings at work or even in family situations, where [00:32:00] I'll just try my best to ask a question, so I can give myself that room and that time to decompress a little bit, because I know I can get really caught up and wound up in my emotions.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. That's a great strategy, whether it's an emotional situation, the practice of letting go of you having to be the center of attention in the room, or you delivering all the information by asking a question. Hey, before we wrap things up, let's just talk a little bit, I was thinking about the professionals [00:32:30] in our lives and how this plays out for them in terms of letting go of ego.
I'm just even thinking of sort of the medical model of a physician or a practitioner coming in and telling the patient what to do, and sort of that authority line, versus what we know to be really most effective in working with professionals in our lives where there's sort of a co-production of decision making, of interactions, of making sure that we walk out [00:33:00] the door with what we need. Thinking about professionals, what advice do you have for them in terms of letting go of ego?
Helen Leiser: You know, that's a really, really good question. One of the things that comes to mind is if that professional, and unfortunately they're given such little time to spend with us, and that's the system and our culture, but if [00:33:30] they can keep in top of mind about what might be going on, if they can do take a moment and check in with that parent and check in with simple questions, even along the way of, "Do you have any questions? How are you feeling about this information that I'm giving to you?"
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. "Are you getting what you need out of this?"
Helen Leiser: Right, yes. "Are you [00:34:00] getting some self care? Do you need some respite? Are playing with your child?" I remember just thinking, "Oh my God. I just have to talk and talk and talk and talk to her. I just have to give her language, language, language, language, language," and forgetting that I can play with her and give, and we can have language communicate still at the same time.
Janet DesGeorges...: Right. Yeah. I think about sort of that permission and [00:34:30] the relationship you have with that professional, and being able to interact. Yeah, I love that. That's really good.
Helen Leiser: And I think that our professionals, I ask them to make that a part of who they are in their role, because there's so much. As parents, I remember just thinking, "Oh my gosh. I've got to call the insurance company next, and I've got to find this next, and I've got this appointment, and I have work." [00:35:00] I can't tell you how many times we ate burritos for dinner, because we were just so overwhelmed with everything else. I remember our first audiologist, she would say, "How are you?", in the start of our appointments, "How are you doing, mom and dad?" That just meant the world to us.
Janet DesGeorges...: Yeah. That's so good, Helen, and I think [00:35:30] professionals who often do know the answer for us, especially when we're in the beginning, starting out, and understanding that sort of trial and error on our side, that idea of letting go of ego, that the professional doesn't always have to be right or always give the answer directly to the parents. Sometimes we need to figure it out for ourselves. Yeah.
Helen Leiser: You know, one of the things I love that we do with Guide By Our Side is when a parent asks us, "Well, what should I do?", instead [00:36:00] of telling them what we think, we ask them more questions. I love that model, because that's exactly what you just said, is then we're helping them figuring out what they want, and maybe it's not in that moment. Maybe it's going to take another week or two, or month, or whatever, but instead of telling them what to do or what worked for us, it's about, "Hey, this is about you and in your family, [00:36:30] so let's figure out what's going to work for you guys." If the first thing doesn't work, that's okay, because there are more options. There are more things, and it's a journey.
Janet DesGeorges...: This has been a great conversation and a really good topic, in terms of those who are listening here today and thinking about developing your own leadership skills. I thought this was awesome. [00:37:00] This was not about us.
Helen Leiser: No.
Janet DesGeorges...: But hopefully this was for the listener, or anybody accessing this topic today, this episode, we hope you enjoyed it. Helen, thank you.
Helen Leiser: Thank you.
Janet DesGeorges...: This was really good. Ever since you introduced this topic in my life, it literally has rocked my world in situations where it saved me the idea of in moments in our lives, if we can just get away from it [00:37:30] having to be about us, it really does create freedom and power. Thank you for being here as part of our podcast series in our episode.
Hey, in closing today, I'd like to thank our sponsor, ASD Online Academy, the American School for the Deaf Online Academy is the first online education platform [00:38:00] serving deaf and hard of hearing students from all over the world. Currently open to students in middle school and high school, the Online Academy helps connect students everywhere with certified teachers and highly experienced staff to provide a specialized education specifically for them. The application deadline for the 2022/2023 school year is March 15th. Learn more at asdonline.academy. Thank you to ASD Online Academy. [00:38:30] Thank you, Helen, and thank you all for listening to [crosstalk 00:38:35].
Helen Leiser: Thank you.
Janet DesGeorges...: We'll see you again soon. Take care.
Helen Leiser: Bye.
Janet DesGeorges...: Bye-bye.
