Janet DesGeorges: Hello everyone. Welcome to At the Table with Hands & voices. I'm your host, Janet DesGeorges, and welcome to this episode, entitled, The Raw Talk, with special guest, Djenne-amal Morris. The podcast series is brought to you by Hands & Voices, where we envision [00:00:30] a world where children who are deaf and hard of hearing have every opportunity to thrive and achieve to their full potential, celebrating all families and their diverse cultures, ensuring equity and inclusion for all. I'm so excited to introduce our guests today, but first our sponsor, The Online Itinerant: Resources, Training and Community all in one place, all for one price. You need knowledge, resources, and guidance so you can equip and empower your child [00:01:00] to grow up without limits. The Friend Academy helps you effectively navigate your journey as a parent or caregiver with a child who is deaf or hard of hearing without judgment.
As a member of the Friend Academy, you are no longer alone. The Friend Academy is a community for all families, regardless of your child's age, stage or communication mode. Go to www.friendacademy.net to learn more. Now, [00:01:30] I'm so excited to introduce to all of you, Djenne-amal Morris. Djenne brings passion, humor and real life experience to her role as a national and international parent professional trainer, facilitator, and motivational speaker, whose view of the world is not as it is, but as it could be.
As a mother of an amazing son, Malik, with CHARGE syndrome, she strives to build an atmosphere of support and empowerment for families of children [00:02:00] with special needs and the professionals who serve them. This has led to her career working with families, with children with special needs in various roles, as women's ministry leader, family specialist for the New England and North Carolina Deaf Blind projects.
Djenne is a state outreach service coordinator at the Texas School for the Deaf. She also serves as the family faculty advisor for the NC LEND program of UNC Chapel Hill, and president of the board of directors for Hands & Voices [00:02:30] headquarters. Djenne and her husband, Michael have three children, Malik, Imani, and Zakiya. Djenne is an avid reader, yogi and a published author, The Art of Collaboration: Lessons from Families of Children With Disabilities.
Djenne, welcome. That is quite an extensive resume. I'm so honored and privileged to have you here on the podcast episode today.
Djenne-amal Mor...: Thank you, Janet. This has been a long time coming dream for both [00:03:00] of us. I'm really happy to be here and get into some raw talk.
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah, I think even the title, The Raw Talk had me probably a little bit nervous as we began to think about this, but listen, I think for me, the context for this conversation today started really last summer with the murder of George Floyd. I know when we [00:03:30] start talking about history and background and where we jump into the conversations around racism, for me, in context, as a leader at Hands & Voices, it did start though with some monthly meetings that we already had scheduled you as a board of director and me as the executive director, and we began to just have different conversations about what was going on in the world.
I think you and I have a [00:04:00] long standing relationship, so it created this... We already had, I think a basis of trust, so as we began to sort of process these things, it felt really natural. I think there were times where we would be done with an hour long conversation, and I would say, "Ah, I wish we had recorded that." Now here we are recording. We're our podcast, this conversation.
Djenne-amal Mor...: Janet, I do want to say, this conversation, [00:04:30] you and I have had... I think we've known each other probably about 15 years now, 14 or 15 years, and what I think so powerful, last year wasn't the catalyst for us having raw talk. I don't think we realized it at the time, but every time we would get together, whether it was a conference or something, you and I always had a glass of wine and talked about life, work, our families, and what was going on in the world [00:05:00] and how it affected our children who are deaf and hard of hearing, but just us in general.
I see it more as a lead up to us desiring to... For Hands & Voices, especially, to be more inclusive. I always remember you leaning in and going, "Djenne, how can we just include more?" Let's talk about really that our organization, board and staff [00:05:30] has a certain demographic, amazing people, but how do we add to that to make it more spicy, I guess. I think when last year with the murder happened, it was for us going, "Oh my gosh, okay, we already have this trust, like you said, we already have this bond, now how are we going to respond?"
Janet DesGeorges: Right. Thank you for that. I do think it [00:06:00] had been in the DNA of Hands & Voices all these years, talking about diversity. I think in general, we've worked really hard over the last 25 years to ensure that all families with deaf and hard of hearing kids are included across modalities, across languages, across school placement issues. I have to say the event itself of a police officer with his foot on [00:06:30] the neck of a black man, I think when this happened, and just thinking and hearing from other black individuals saying, "This isn't the first moment of this."
I know it wasn't the first moment for me, Djenne, but it was the first moment I was called on as the executive director to put something out there, because what was happening is from that day on, all the organizations were putting out statements, and me this was a moment in time where I began [00:07:00] to think about all of our community and differing perspectives, and what is it that we could put out? What words would we put out?
While I appreciate you saying this was before, we had this in our DNA before, for me just in terms of what I had do, it all of a sudden was in my face, and it wasn't about the statement itself, but it was really about being honest about, are we really going to explore [00:07:30] this? Not just, do we have enough black children on our brochures? This was a pivotal point for me, I think in terms of the commitment that I both want to make and understanding. I do have a bit of understanding, I guess, that this wasn't the pivotal moment for you and your life experience, because you had a lifetime of experiences in the community that you live in and are a part of. Yeah, [00:08:00] so for me, that's why this past year has been really critical.
Djenne-amal Mor...: I think what's interesting, you said you felt call to action because it was now in your face.
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah.
Djenne-amal Mor...: I remember kind of going, "Uh-huh (affirmative) Janet. Yeah. Welcome to the world." I think that's where the rawness is, right? That [00:08:30] it's always been in the face of people of color day in and day out. We survive and thrive with it in our face. You were called to action because it's in your face. That's what I kind of meant. We've had these talks before about... but the action for you came when it was in your face, when you felt that it was in your face.
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah. I [00:09:00] haven't really thought a whole lot about this, but what was both the horror of it, of course, and thinking a little bit more in terms of what it was that was in my face, getting emails and phone calls from people like when is Hands & Voices going to speak out about this and sort of that pressure of that.
I think in those early days, when we think back to last year and even thinking about [00:09:30] the statement that we ultimately did put out, it's up on our website now and people can go look at it if they want. It was a result of almost three weeks of lots of conversations with our board and staff, a whole bunch of different sort of emotions that we're filtering through from a lot of different people, and how do you take that where there isn't just one voice or one response and begin to synthesize it for somebody like [00:10:00] our organization. I think that was a little bit of the beginning parts of this too, in thinking about how can we have conversations where everyone's voice is heard, everyone's at the table, and ultimately kind of think about moving forward.
The raw talk, people kept bringing that up in the days that ensued, and people were being interviewed and on television saying it's time for us to have raw conversations and speak truth [00:10:30] and really be able to dissect this, not just from your own perspective, being able to... It's time for white people to just shut up and listen. You didn't say that to me in that way, but in some ways that's kind of what I was experiencing. There was something about how this all played out that had these extremes with it, where it began to be this extreme of like every white person is a racist. We have to deconstruct [00:11:00] our entire society back to there's no racism left in the world. Anybody who says this is just trying to tear down our society or our structures.
The truth is for me, I believe the whole mess is in the middle. When we take positions on either side, we cannot talk about this. I think that to me when I finally ask you like, Djenne, everybody's talking about having raw conversations, what does that mean? I'll never forget, you said, "Honey, it just [00:11:30] means we're actually talking about it." That sort of set me free, because I was so worried about being perceived on either end of this spectrum of how this is playing out, so...
Djenne-amal Mor...: Yeah. I think everyone was nervous, afraid and because we are complex human beings, but we also are human beings that have relationships. I know I felt [00:12:00] what are some of my relationships at stake based on how people respond, react, what they say. You're right. It created this either or. We just don't talk about it because we don't want to get political, or you have the one person talking at another and not really communicating. I think that [00:12:30] like we did, we just talked in the middle and gave each other the freedom to just say the real and raw truth of our own experiences. I think that's so key, because it just reminds me of, you turn on the light, if you have roaches, and all the roaches scatter. I think that's what happened. No one wanted to be in the light with what they were thinking and feeling because of the fear. [00:13:00] The more we brought and we bring our true feelings and experiences into the light, the more we can learn from each other and validate those experiences.
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah. It's funny know your preconceived beliefs will cloud what information you even want to take in or receive, and I think we all get that. We like to listen to the news stations that align with what we already [00:13:30] believe, and so then it's this filter of just resonating back with what positions you want to take or believe in. I think for me, something that happened in those conversations and to this day is stopping to just listen. I think you said that to me, cause I'm like, "Well, what is it that I'm supposed to be doing here?" You said, "Just listen."
I really appreciate you, because though [00:14:00] we've had a relationship for 15 years, there are stories in your life that I had never heard before, and this brought the platform and the opportunity for both of you to share it and for me to be a listener in it. One weird thing about that was that you said at some point like, especially in the middle of this, people were calling you, asking you, talking to you, you were processing this all day long, every day, talking to everyone. I remember, I didn't want to be one of those [00:14:30] people that are like, "Djenne make me feel better. Can I post a picture of you and me on my [inaudible 00:14:37] so people know I have a black friend." Oh my gosh, I'm married to a Latino, but Joe's... that life experience with him is so different from the day you and I met, and Michael had just gone out the door and you heard a car backfire, and your heart dropped. I can't tell you what [00:15:00] even that snippet of the story did for me. Or the stories that you would tell me of your life experience.
Again, it's not like I didn't know some of this or had read about some of it before, but there is something going on, I think right now in our society, and I have to say after a year, I feel like some of it dissipates, like people's quit talking about it as much. I know you and I's commitment from the beginning was we are not going to let this one incident just [00:15:30] rise up and then go away. We can talk a little bit more later about that. I think listening to your stories, Djenne, just sort of helped me sit back and go, "Actually, Janet, this is your time to sit back and listen." You know me, I'm an extrovert. I love to talk, so yeah.
Djenne-amal Mor...: The interesting thing, Janet, though, you and I always talk about safe space and [00:16:00] brave space.
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah.
Djenne-amal Mor...: In our world of deaf, hard of hearing, in our world of disability, and our work as professionals, as well as parents, that has been a brave space and a safe space, and we've talked to people and our whole lives is surrounded around making people feel at home, feel like they have a family, [00:16:30] teaching and presenting to professionals, parents all over, telling our stories about our children, and about the children that we serve.
It was interesting because I have this saying in my head that the field of disability is one that it can be a blessing and a curse in that we think, especially as professionals, we think [00:17:00] it's the great equalizer, but it really isn't. I think sometimes as professionals like, oh, we're just serving children who are deaf and hard of hearing or having other challenges. We don't realize we go in with our own bias. We go in with our own preconceived notions. When it becomes a not a safe space [00:17:30] is when we bring things in that we're not comfortable about. Those stories that we're not comfortable about. People may say, "Tell me about Malik." Or, "Tell me about how your family navigates."
The intersection of say who Malik is as a young man with CHARGE, but also a young black man with CHARGE. With a young black man with a disability who I'm just as afraid of [00:18:00] as going someplace and doing something to get his life in danger. Those are the stories that I didn't feel as safe or brave to say, because I didn't know how it was going to land.
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah. When you were saying that, it made me think of sort of the context for our relationship and conversations around [00:18:30] culture, equity, racism. It's both a blessing and a curse, cause I think deafness, like you say, is sort of the great equalizer in terms of what brings diverse communities together. Like our community at Hands & Voices talk about diversity. It's not just what communication modes or methods or schools our kids go to, but people from all religious backgrounds, from political backgrounds, from [00:19:00] social contracts, from race and ethnicity, there is something about the shared experience that did bring us all platform, but it's also, if that's the blessing, then the curse would be that there are parts of each of our stories that all of those things do bring in to the thing that also is the same, if that makes sense. When we don't explore that, then [00:19:30] we're not doing a service to what we're here for anyway in terms of our organization and serving families.
I think some of the stories that I started hearing were from black families who, for instance, would go to the audiologist's office and it could be any professional office. I'm not picking on audiologists today who were listening to us, by the way, but just having to overcome preconceptions of [00:20:00] the feeling of being in the waiting room or being perceived as the family that doesn't follow through. Or, I have a friend who told me a story a long time ago, who's Spanish speaking, and she was late for audiology appointment and she walked in the door and she said she could just feel the judgment of, you don't care about your child. You're always late. You're not really invested in this. What she told me is she had been sitting out in the parking lot on time for her [00:20:30] appointment, by the way, but it took her 35 minutes to quit sobbing before she could get into the audiology office, because she was just such an emotional wreck and everything going on at that time.
I think this conversation is important, not just societally, but for us who really want to think about how we have to serve our families effectively and be willing to talk about these things that are going on.
Djenne-amal Mor...: It's interesting. [00:21:00] I have an audiology story, taking Malik to the audiologist, as well as being a professional who serves kids who are deaf and hard of hearing. I was very familiar with where I took him. I was very familiar with the physician that I took him to. I purposely took him to this physician because he was the best, this audiologist. As a professional, and I had to figure out what [00:21:30] hat I was going to wear. I had to wear all of my hats. I had to be a parent. I was Malik's mom. I'm there trying to figure out. I timed it at the end of the day so that I knew there were no other appointments, so we wouldn't be rushed, and so that Malik could eat, do all the things.
I'm in the office, Malik's pulling the things down and you know, because he's just all over the place. My mom is going, "Oh my goodness." Then I had, [00:22:00] and I've talked about this before, a sheet where I have all about me, all about Malik, what he likes, what he doesn't like, all of medicines, all his doctors. I hand this to every physician, even if they get it a hundred times, so that we can have a talk, so they're not asking what medicine. Because first of all, it's emotional anyway so to have to replay what's going on with him, but also he's hanging [00:22:30] from the rafters, we have to do this quick.
As a professional who also trains and teaches professionals, some of whom are audiologists, I wanted them to know that I was on my Ps and Qs as a parent, as a black parent. Here is all of the information, the doses, the doctors, and I know my stuff, because I am not going to be treated like I don't know my stuff, so I had to be even more prepared, [00:23:00] overly prepared. It was funny because the resident came in, he hadn't read the form. I said, "Have you read it?" I said, "Well, go out and read it. I want to have a decent discussion and I'm not going to answer your questions, because I've already prepared this."
He comes back. One of the fellow comes in. I said, "Did you read the form?" He just turned to himself and he said, "It's the end of the day. I didn't have a chance." I said, "Well have a seat." It's interesting because he was a black guy. [00:23:30] Malik goes and crawls in his lap as he was reading this, and so he's looking like, okay, I know my mama trained me right. I'm going to hold Malik with one hand and I'm going to read this.
He's reading it, then he goes out, and I listen and I hear before the audiologist comes in, "That mama don't play. You better read that form before you go in there, because she's going to get on you." The [crosstalk 00:23:59] comes in and goes, "Djenne, why [00:24:00] are you giving my doctors a hard time?" I said, "Because they need to learn and they need to come correct." That's just an example of what I as a parent who understand how I'm treated as a black parent, a young black man, but even if we weren't, regardless of our background, you still have to have that professional stance to be respected.
Janet DesGeorges: Right.
Djenne-amal Mor...: All of that was going on [00:24:30] with the added. Malik is deaf plus, and I have many, many families, friends who have deaf plus who go through the same angst going to a physician, but the added concern of which lens am might be being seen at as is, you know...
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah. That extra layer. It's like-
Djenne-amal Mor...: Extra layer.
Janet DesGeorges: It's like we all have friends who have typically developing kids and we'll tell a story and they'll go, "Oh yeah, that [00:25:00] happened to my middle schooler. They didn't have any friends in fourth grade either." You're like, "Yeah, and I have a deaf child and that added an extra layer." As you're telling your story, Djenne, I'm thinking about that perception or the implicit bias or whatever you want to call it, that you walk into rooms with where you have, sure, the layers of being a parent, the layers of being a parent of a child with special needs, and as a black woman or black mother, that extra layer [00:25:30] of having to navigate the perceptions of people around you. Yeah.
Djenne-amal Mor...: I think, Janet, it's the pride versus the preparation. I am proud to be a black woman. I always have. I love my people. I'm proud to have a black family, a black son. I'm also proud to be a black woman that has a wide array of friends and [00:26:00] relationships. That's sometimes... We always talk about the dealing with our children from a deficit point of view. I think sometimes in these discussions of race, it's talked about from a deficit point of view. It's a burden you got to go in, and now you have another layer being a black mom. Now I'm proud. I am proud. I'll say it loud, black, and I'm proud to be a black mom, but then as a black mom, I have to go in prepared [00:26:30] for any nonsense that I have to deal with. I also have to prepare, is this really discrimination? Is this marginalization? What is this? Then also prepare how I'm going to react or respond. Maybe it's the scales. I would say it's the dichotomy, but it's the balance, it's the balancing act. I think that's where the resistance and resilience. [00:27:00] That's where the resilience comes in, is being able to balance that and the exhaustion [inaudible 00:27:07].
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah. I don't want to skip to the end of the story here because except that something you said during this part was there's something in the... At the end of the day, if you try to think of where is it that we're trying to get [00:27:30] to, it is the reducing of barrier. Say, take a conversation about equitable healthcare or whatever, how do we reduce the barriers that exist for some parts of our population and not for others, so that families, like you say, example of healthcare, are getting equitable, equitable services and supports? I keep thinking about the end of the [00:28:00] story is strength and equality, and the richness of culture, the pride of who you are. It's not the dismissiveness of we're all the same. It's the patchwork of the beautiful cultures and who we are, and the strengths that each culture, or ethnicity, or language brings to the table. That when [00:28:30] that's embraced, that's kind of where we want to get to go.
I say that about the end of the story, which we know will never be the end of the story, but back to this sort of beginning part where you're like, okay, we got to go through five implicit bias trainings. When we talk about a safe and a brave space, now I'm saying this in front of others, but like I've asked you the question, do I have to admit that I'm a racist [00:29:00] before we can move forward here? It's like some of the questions that we're all thinking or feeling, or maybe you in your life have people that know about our relationship and would say another white person you have to take care of Djenne or whatever it is they might say.
Djenne-amal Mor...: They say yeah.
Janet DesGeorges: Is that what they say? Yeah. I know, and even knowing by you having told me that, like last year too, I remember at first like I was like, I don't want to be one of those people. Okay. This leads me a little bit [00:29:30] to the incident that happened between you and I, and for our listeners today, we have a story to tell that we have not actually resolved together. We actually haven't talked about this since it happened. I've been reflecting from my own viewpoint, but we thought we would like to just share a little bit about something that happened between us in our, like you all know our relationship of trust and all of this and something still occurred. Do you want to talk about it first or do you want me [00:30:00] to frame it? Because we'll probably frame it both a little differently.
Djenne-amal Mor...: You frame it and then I'll unravel it. I'll-
Janet DesGeorges: I'll by saying just even frame it, or I'm wondering if this would fall under the category of microaggression. By the way, for those of you who get triggered by any kind of words we're using here today, too bad, just work with us here, but microaggression can be intentional or unintentional. [00:30:30] When something happens and someone calls you out and you say, but I didn't mean to, that really isn't the point of any occurrence, but Djenne and I were in a room together. We hadn't been together in person a long time with... I think there were six or seven of us, two men, five women. We were discussing a really heated topic with a lot of different perspectives. I personally was feeling [00:31:00] pretty defensive. I felt like there was a little bit of group think tank trying to get me from one position to the next, and maybe that was true.
In retrospect, the thing we were discussing after getting past my own stuff, I think there was a whole lot of wisdom in the room, but I just remember being in the room, feeling a bit defensive myself, and it was with people I love and trust and everything. [00:31:30] We kind of started work through a lot of conversations and then started a little bit of a list. That's kind of my remembrance of what happened in the room, but now tell them what happened in the kitchen Djenne. Or do you want me to finish what I thought happened in the kitchen?
Djenne-amal Mor...: Go ahead.
Janet DesGeorges: You can-
Djenne-amal Mor...: That's part of the story. Let's hold off on that. Let's build this up.
Janet DesGeorges: Okay. Now [00:32:00] you tell what happened.
Djenne-amal Mor...: Janet and I had some time together before the meeting, before this gathering, as we always do, just to kind of get back and hang out and solidify our friendship and sisterhood, and feeling really good about being together, being safe together, and this is of course in the middle of the pandemic, so there was a lot of trust, a lot of open conversations and honesty about that. [00:32:30] The decision, I knew we were coming together to make some important decisions, as well as do some planning.
My concern, which I don't even know if Janet knows was I was talking with the other members about the decision not [00:33:00] to kind of... I know Janet felt that we were doing a consensus so that we could sway her in one way. Really the consensus, it wasn't a consensus. My concern was Janet and I have had this conversation several times. I'm not sure if she could hear it from me again. I need you all to speak up. I said, if I bring it up, it's not going to go well. [00:33:30] It was just tense. We were all tense about having to make an extremely important decision. I said to them, "I'm going to need your support in this, and I don't need to be the one to bring this conversation up."
During this whole conversation, everyone kind of had their opinions, stats behind opinions, opinions behind stats, et cetera. [00:34:00] Several people even got very, not heated, but animated, emotional about personally making this decision and presenting Hands & Voices in a way that we needed to. I just said, "I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to say anything." Then I ended up saying my thoughts and the way I saw it, Janet boom got, yeah, the defense [00:34:30] came up, and you were already feeling defensive, but you lashed out at me using some personal things that I told you. Well, this is good. This is because of a personal decision. You told me some things that we had talked about before, and in my head, you went off, and basically saying, "I don't trust what you're saying, because [00:35:00] I know how you feel."
Now. Everyone else had just said what I had said beforehand. But I was the only one that got the reaction from you. I remember saying, "Didn't other people say this." What was going on for me in that space, oh, because we had just watched [00:35:30] a film about equity. Deaf and hard of hearing and marginalization. We were all still thinking about that. Honestly, I was like, "I know she just didn't come at me." Everybody else who's white in the world said the exact same thing. Even one of the males was very animated. She's not jumping bad at him. I was like, slipping my earrings are on the table, cause I'm going to take them off now. I said, I knew this was going to happen. I [00:36:00] had told everyone else, this is what's going to happen, and it happened. For me, I'm like, why did you feel that you could react to me in that way, and you didn't with anyone else?
The way it translated to me, and honestly, Janet, for the first time in 15 years, you were that [00:36:30] white woman. Like who the hell do you think you are that you think you can talk to me this way and not everyone else. That everyone, I don't know if they were shocked, or it wasn't like I had an ally even in that room. Someone talked to me afterwards cause I was practically in tears. I was furious. I know then you said, "Okay, we'll talk about this in the car." Oh then [00:37:00] so you wanted to just dismiss it. We'll talk about this up in the car. I'm like, no, you brought it out in the open. We're going to talk about it right now. I became this, you want to fight? Let's fight.
Janet DesGeorges: Yeah. When we moved into the kitchen and you said, "I just have to tell you I'm processing this, because I felt like you called me out as the black woman in the room." Yes. I'd been through enough training to not say in that moment. I didn't mean to. [00:37:30] I had a few things going on in my head. First of all, through what was going on in society and having just like heard stories of... Like, I guess something came to my head like, I don't think this is the first time this has happened to you as the only black person in the room. Like this isn't the first time this has happened, first of all. The way you said it to me is, "Janet. I have to let you know that I'm processing this."
You didn't [00:38:00] come out and say, "Oh, you just attacked the only black woman in the room." You just said, "Look, this is what I'm experiencing and I'm processing." That created some space for us to get through this, rather than that attack, no matter how we were feeling emotionally.
My second emotion was just real grief, because I wanted to be that one friend in you, that one white woman in your life who didn't ever, [00:38:30] ever do a microaggression against you. I've been through the implicit bias training, so I will never be implicitly biased again. There was something about just sort of the grief of that. Like, ah, damn it, you have to go through this in your life in a lot of places. I wanted this... Like you say, we talk about this being the safe and brave space, it does not mean that you're never going to be hurt by me, or I'm not going to do something that's sort of through that lens of [00:39:00] race space.
I actually have never sat and processed, because I don't know that I can consciously come to some conclusion that says, "Oh yeah, I gave it to Djenne because she was the black woman in the room." I think we talk about implicit layers of stuff going on in our world. I don't know really the answer to that, but it made me think, it didn't [00:39:30] end our friendship.
When we talk about implicit bias, so implicit or unconscious that. I think it was a lesson for me that just because I say I'm all that in terms of not wanting to be one of those people that have any layers of anything, like I want to run over to that other extreme [00:40:00] of on the lens of I'm not a racist. I actually don't believe that there's one, that we're superior to one another based on the color of our skin or language or any of those things and yet it was, I think, a lesson for me and one of my many lessons of just like I got to work. I've got to, first of all, accept that and not say, "Oh, I didn't mean to." Or, "No, that's not really what it was."
[00:40:30] Especially like just hearing other... I think that again, I'm going to just keep coming back to these collective stories that I've opened my heart to in the past year, really hearing and listening to, because what that does is it helps alleviate all the political discourse of what this is in our society to go, "These are real life experiences of people today happening in their world." That's, [00:41:00] I think for me again, talking about the raw talk, it's like, you and I can actually talk about this. I was glad you said that to me. There was a lot of things I think going on even in the car when we tried to talk, that did not go well, I didn't think, in terms of getting to some sort of heart of something that was going on. I don't know. That's yeah, no like happy bow on top [00:41:30] of the present of resolution, but...
Djenne-amal Mor...: Interesting. I think you brought up a really, really good point about intent. Let's talk about intent because that's kind of one of the buzz words, but I didn't intentionally do it. Let's talk about intent, because I think the trust and the friendship and the raw talk that you and I have had, especially, like you said, in the last year [00:42:00] where I've even felt like our relationship's grown, because I've said things to you in a way that I hadn't said it before, cause I'm just going to keep it raw and real. Remember we always... I'm going to keep it raw and real. You're like, "Okay, can we have real talk?" It was this reciprocal thing. Right?
In terms of intent, I knew you did not intent. [00:42:30] That trust was there that you didn't intend. You didn't say, "Okay, Djenne, I am a white woman and Djenne, I am going to take this matriarchal tone with Djenne to put Djenne in her place." Because I know you couldn't even do that if you wanted to. I mean, it would make you sick. Now, there are people that I know who will do that, [00:43:00] but I know your heart and soul is not intending to do that. Remember I said, I'm processing because it was the optics as well. Remember, I think I said if you were in another room, this is how this could have been seen. I was hurt. I was like, "Oh my gosh." But I also was thinking about, as [00:43:30] we always do, okay, how can I make us into a teachable moment and a workshop? That's why I said that, and I said, "I'm processing." Because it was a shock. I was like, I know this just didn't happen within this framework.
Janet DesGeorges: Yet it did.
Djenne-amal Mor...: Yet it did. I know we're running a little bit low on time, but what I wanted to also talk about is the aftermath, [00:44:00] because I know on the car ride, I was just done. I was like, okay. I think you said, "Djenne, I know we're going to resolve this. It's going to take some time." The person in the car, the wise friend that we both had said, well, you're seeing it from both sides, and I dumped on him too, of course, because he was trying to... Bless him.
What he did say that hit me [00:44:30] was the two of you are so powerful together, Janet and Djenne, that this will be resolved and you will realize the power of that, but you don't realize how powerful you are together. All the years of us being on stage planning, all of our... We are powerful together. Me I was like, "I'm breaking up. I'm done. I'm quitting. Really Janet? [00:45:00] Really?
But afterwards being home, which I've never shared with you, first time drum roll, it took a long time for me to heal. I was also going through some other stuff at work that was just some real, not a microaggression, some real aggression and racial marginalization, et cetera. That, you became not a safe space anymore, and you've always [00:45:30] been. I've always told you that you've always been my safe space in this world of what we do. I went through the grieving of at [inaudible 00:45:42], not you too Janet, I can't lose you. This happened and I have to process my hurt and I still have to smile and meet with you every month because we've got business.
I [00:46:00] had to go through a healing in realizing, wait a minute, what that person said is the power of the two of us together, the power of real talk. We're humans in a relationship, we are going to hurt each other. We never realized we would hurt each other in the most raw way where it could have broken us up. I mean, forget the organization, but what we have [00:46:30] together for that to splinter would've broken my heart, but it also would've broken other people's hearts if we couldn't resolve it in the framework of the crazy racial and social justice piece. Here we are, we are fighting our own racial and social justice in your living room.
The resolution and the bow, honestly, for me is I'm through that and I couldn't work [00:47:00] it out with you. I couldn't. I had to work it out within myself, and I didn't talk to anyone else about it. I had to do that. The bow for me is that we are doing it now. We're tying the bow now, because we're having these real conversations. It's going to happen again, and we're an example of what that is and what that could look like and be, and that's why we're having these real and raw conversations.
Janet DesGeorges: Yes. I could feel it after coming [00:47:30] back together after that incident, there was a wall between us and not a terrible way, but just yeah. Djenne, I think for today and thinking of our listeners here today or people who are viewing this, accessing this on video or captioning or whatever, it does come back to the organizational thrust forward because we want to do something here that's meaningful, that actually is [00:48:00] meeting the needs of the diversity of the families that we serve. While I'm satisfied that we were able to take this one incident between you and I and move forward relationally together, it's still reflective of the societal barriers that are going on in the world, and whether it's families of deaf children or.
I'm [00:48:30] thinking about this incident, the individual incident, but it's a reflection of you as a black woman in a position of power and authority at tables where the higher you go up, the less likely you are to see people of other races at that level. When we talk about what are we going to do you hear at Hands & Voices, we need to be more diverse in our staff, in our board, in people's positions of authority and influence that has to be reflective across race and gender [00:49:00] and all different kinds of things to create actual, true diversity within our organization and in positions of power.
The experience that you had wasn't just at a book club, it was in a position of power, in a room where you probably are more likely to be the only black person in a room once as you move up through the levels of where decisions are being made and the influence that you have. I don't know quite [00:49:30] what the connection between our personal story and our ambitions here organizationally, but I think it's a part of the puzzle because I think it's just amazing how people are not willing to be in raw talks if the minute they get triggered by certain words or certain concepts.
I don't know that like people who all of a sudden when... Back to [00:50:00] the George Floyd murder, when it began to be dichotomized between supporting police or not supporting police. We know in our organization, we have family members who... You may have family members who are in police force. All of a sudden when your ability to create change gets just completely squashed because we cannot be at the same tables talking this through and getting to the next steps. This is where I'm [00:50:30] glad we're at, and where we want to be, and thinking about what are the actual changes we're going to make in our organization, so that some of those societal constructs that have kept people of color out away from the table. Can we create a table here?
Again, to me, it does go back to a bit of creating spaces for storytelling. [00:51:00] I think we all have to sit back and... It's funny because I think I heard a black journalist or somebody being interviewed is like, "The white people need to just shut up and listen." I was really offended by that. Then after a while, though, when I began to hear the stories, that did seem to be a key to me. There's sort of a layering and [00:51:30] building of that.
There was one story of... I probably said this to you, because... One of the stories that changed me was a black man who talked about he lives in a middle class, upper middle class neighborhood. As long as he is out walking with his four year old daughters whose hand he's holding or walking his dog, he's the friendly, wonderful neighbor, but if he's out jogging, then all of a sudden there's a different perspective of him.
Or like I mentioned earlier, this story of your husband, walking out the door and hearing the car [00:52:00] backfire and wondering if you're proud, big, bold, black man just got shot. That is not anything I ever think about in my world or life. These conversations have to occur for the foundation of then getting to the table and saying, "Okay, we have a diversity equity inclusion planning. Here are five action plans that we're going to take this year to create better equity, inclusion, diversity." I'm sorry, I [00:52:30] say that with a sarcastic tone. It's awful that I do, except I'm tired of going to workshops where we talk about this, but then I don't actually see like things really changing, and I'm just committed to seeing something improve in our organization.
Djenne-amal Mor...: It's the stories. I think you're so right. Because we love telling our stories, right? It's those stories... [00:53:00] Like with Michael or Malik or your friend, you heard him walking his daughter. Those are the stories that need to be told, but need to be heard. You and I have talked about this, that I don't think white people just need to shut up and listen. I understand the thought and concept, but saying [00:53:30] it that way and presenting it. I mean, who wants to have a conversation if I'm telling you, "Janet, shut up and listen." I'd rather you ask me questions and there's some reciprocity there. I think the validation of white people need to shut up and listen is not taking it in so personally that you want to prove you're not a racist. You want to take away the validation [00:54:00] of that, because you don't see it, you haven't experienced it. We're being too dramatic, or oh, you got to bring it up again.
When we are telling stories, or, oh, I'm so sorry. It's not personal. I don't want you to be sorry. This is life. I mean, for example, I told a story being in the south to a family that [00:54:30] we were visiting. I don't want Michael taking a walk at night without me, unless he has our dog, Boston. The person could not... I said, I don't even want him walking the dog. We're going to do this together, because I knew the neighborhood. I didn't know who was in the neighborhood, but this is my assumption.
The person could not hear what I'm saying. They were so into the stats and the black on black crime and this and that, [00:55:00] and I stopped him, and I said, "Did you hear what I said? My story is that I don't want my husband going out of your door, because I don't know if he's going to come back or someone's going to call the police." I said, "What are you going to do? What would you do if the police came to the door with my husband in the backseat?" I said, "These are the real life stories. It's not a condemnation of you as a human being. We love you." [00:55:30] He couldn't accept it, and by not accepting it, he was taking that story and invalidating it, that we couldn't even walk in his own neighborhood as guests in his house.
I think those are the stories that is like, okay, wow, tell me more, help me to understand. Not that we have to be teachers, but I think, Janet, also, one other thing I want to say is the speaking versus the silence that [00:56:00] happened in the last year. I think that's where you see even the silos, those that spoke up, and this isn't right or justifying all of this, but then it's the silence of people not speaking up. If we go back to the room that we were in, what hurt even more was the silence. Now, if I or any of us had said something derogatory or used a word that was antiquated [00:56:30] or a term for kids who are deaf and hard of hearing, we would jump on each other and correct each other. The fact that in that level, I mean that's profound. In my position of power-
Janet DesGeorges: That's okay. This is an organic podcast. We're going to just let [inaudible 00:56:50].
Djenne-amal Mor...: In my position of power in one of the most powerful organizations, I think, in the country, and I'm at the highest level, [00:57:00] I was still alone, because no one had the bravery to speak up. Now I don't know if they saw it. They definitely saw between you and I and my discomfort, but I wonder, we're talking about brave spaces. Why didn't anybody go, "Janet chill out." Or, "Djenne, let's process what you're thinking [00:57:30] and feeling here as a group." Cause that's like our core group, right?
Janet DesGeorges: Right.
Djenne-amal Mor...: Someone approached me outside and said, "Are you okay?" I said, "Well, why do you ask that?" "Well, I saw you inside about to cry." I said, "Well, you should have said something inside. Don't pull me aside." That is also what people don't realize, the higher you get, that's great, and we can all be at the table. Why isn't the spotlight on those that [00:58:00] are silent? Rather than the person who has been the... I don't like the word victim, but the receptor of the microaggression, or the one who is hurt. Whether or not people came to you afterwards and processed it, that's fine, whatever, but in that room, that's where we end up alone. We can have all the great people at the table. That [00:58:30] even for me, as we going forward in our organization, and I know we're going to be doing some diversity equity and inclusion training, but some real raw... Maybe we should change it and be real raw training, right? Really helping to embolden people to speak up for one another, that's allyship.
Janet DesGeorges: That's where you learn and grow and move forward.
Djenne-amal Mor...: Yes, absolutely.
Janet DesGeorges: Man, I'm happy to be here in the middle of [00:59:00] the messy with you. Yeah. I got my inspiration even for doing podcasts with us having monthly chats together, just thinking, "Man, this just feels so rich." I'm really grateful that you're my friend, my boss, my ally. I hope-
Djenne-amal Mor...: Birthday twin.
Janet DesGeorges: Yes. We have [00:59:30] the same birthdays. I think we could go on forever. I think we'll wrap it up here. Any final comments you want to make and then I'll close this out here?
Djenne-amal Mor...: Yes. I remember, Janet, in one of our heated raw moments, even before our incident, I remember saying to you and another member of our board, who's a woman of color, saying to you, "We are still [01:00:00] here because we believe in the organization, but we also believe in the people. We're here to help us all to be better and to be braver." These are two women, myself and this other women, we would completely walk away if we didn't feel that this is worth us all growing and being brave together. I think that's kind of [01:00:30] been the catalyst, is we're going to do this mess together and I'm still here and you're still here until next time.
Janet DesGeorges: I was going to ask, will you come back? We have some interesting things going on. I think in the coming year, I'd love for us to do another... Let's do the raw talk part two as we move forward together. Thank you so much.
Djenne-amal Mor...: Those that are listening, if there are things that you would like to throw in for Janet and Djenne in our raw talk to discuss, please [01:01:00] feel free to do so.
Janet DesGeorges: Absolutely. Yeah. This was an honor today. We are going to close out by sharing another one of our sponsors, the ASD Online Academy, the American School for the Deaf Online Academy is the first online education platform serving deaf and hard of hearing students from all over the world. Currently open to students in middle school and high school, the online academy helps connect students everywhere with certified [01:01:30] teachers and highly experienced staff to provide a specialized education specifically for them.
The application deadline for the 2022-23 school year is March 15th. Learn more at asdonline.academy. Djenne, thank you again. There's lots of topics we could cover here. You are an expert in the area of leadership, collaboration, all kinds of different things. My hope to see you here again, and thank you again for spending the time [01:02:00] with us here on, At the Table with Hands & Voices.
